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Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
Sadly there was yet another person hit by a train at Southall on
Monday evening (yesterday). http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/co...c=669.msg87663 This is very sad - but why so many at Southall anyway? It does seem to be a regular occurance. Anyway you would have thought that First Great Western might have had a contingency plan for such occurrences by now. However the situation at Paddington was complete chaos. At 9.30 pm when I s was there all the destination board said was Delayed or Cancelled for *every train* - Local, Intercity, and Airport. The concourse was packed with late commuters trying to get home, yet with no means of doing so. There were no FGW or BAA HEX or Network Rail duty managers in sight. Apparently they'd all gone home. There were no extra staff drafted in to help inform the crowds. There were no Transport Police / Community Officers in sight. All of the gateline staff had gone home, and all the gates were left open. On the concourse one Information Desk was closed, on the other there were just two staff to deal with the hoard of by now very frustrated passengers. yet they had no information to give out except what was displayed on the destination board - which said Delayed or Cancelled. It was apparent that failing the appearance on any management no-one knew what was going on and had no means of finding out. There were no alternative transport arrangements available, i.e. with coaches or buses, for getting airline travellers (laden with luggage) to Heathrow - all of the BAA's HEX and CON services were all cancelled to about 22.00. Hundreds of passengers must have missed their flights. Southall has six lines / three pairs. If the incident affected say the slow lines then there are at leastthe fast and freight lines that could have been used as a local diversion. Even if the fast lines had been affected then at least the slow and freight lines could have been used. Whilst it is sad that yet another person from Southall ws hit by a train, it is unacceptable for Paddington to be reduced into chaos yet again for the lack of any leadership or even appearance of any managers or extra staff. SB |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
One person has lost their life, many others will be affected for
months or possibly even years by the experience...but hey, some people might get home an hour or two late! Oh no! Thats infinately more important than making sure that there arent bits of body lying about, or checking the need to preserve a possible crime scene - just send trains along the other lines! Oh, and there must be loads of staff to tell abusive passengers who cant comprehend announcements or displays that no, they dont know when or if their train will run. Sorry for being flippant, but it happens. Poor people in poor areas end their miserable lives. People going home from work get delayed. Trains are cancelled. Staff get shouted at because they dont have crystal balls. Its not going to change, so my advice is to go and find a café, have a sit down and stop being so angry when compared to the poor unfortunate who died and the poor unfortunate's who have to clear up the result you have VERY little to complain about. |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 2:31*am, Chris Sanderson wrote:
One person has lost their life, many others will be affected for months or possibly even years by the experience...but hey, some people might get home an hour or two late! Oh no! Thats infinately more important than making sure that there arent bits of body lying about, or checking the need to preserve a possible crime scene - just send trains along the other lines! Oh, and there must be loads of staff to tell abusive passengers who cant comprehend announcements or displays that no, they dont know when or if their train will run. Sorry for being flippant, but it happens. Poor people in poor areas end their miserable lives. People going home from work get delayed. Trains are cancelled. Staff get shouted at because they dont have crystal balls. Its not going to change, so my advice is to go and find a café, have a sit down and stop being so angry when compared to the poor unfortunate who died and the poor unfortunate's who have to clear up the result you have VERY little to complain about. Maybe so, but its us what have to suffer the delays and the railways should have a contingecy for when events like this happen but the truth is theyre just not interested in going out of there way if its going to cost them to bring in buses/coaches/taxis when they can just put there hands up and say its network rails fault. |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 2:31*am, Chris Sanderson wrote:
One person has lost their life, many others will be affected for months or possibly even years by the experience...but hey, some people might get home an hour or two late! Oh no! Thats infinately more important than making sure that there arent bits of body lying about, or checking the need to preserve a possible crime scene - just send trains along the other lines! Oh, and there must be loads of staff to tell abusive passengers who cant comprehend announcements or displays that no, they dont know when or if their train will run. Sorry for being flippant, but it happens. Poor people in poor areas end their miserable lives. People going home from work get delayed. Trains are cancelled. Staff get shouted at because they dont have crystal balls. Its not going to change, so my advice is to go and find a café, have a sit down and stop being so angry when compared to the poor unfortunate who died and the poor unfortunate's who have to clear up the result you have VERY little to complain about. Yes it happens, alas - that's why there should be some contingency planning. Tim |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On 05/04/2011 01:38, SB wrote:
Sadly there was yet another person hit by a train at Southall on Monday evening (yesterday). http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/co...c=669.msg87663 This is very sad - but why so many at Southall anyway? It does seem to be a regular occurance. One theory I've seen is that many of the suicides are Asian women escaping the torments of arranged marriages. Southall, of course, having a large population of British Asians. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 2:38*am, SB wrote:
There were no alternative transport arrangements available, i.e. with coaches or buses, for getting airline travellers (laden with luggage) to Heathrow Was the Piccadilly Line off? Neil |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 3:31*am, Chris Sanderson wrote:
One person has lost their life, many others will be affected for months or possibly even years by the experience...but hey, some people might get home an hour or two late! Oh no! Thats infinately more important than making sure that there arent bits of body lying about, or checking the need to preserve a possible crime scene - just send trains along the other lines! Oh, and there must be loads of staff to tell abusive passengers who cant comprehend announcements or displays that no, they dont know when or if their train will run. Sorry for being flippant, but it happens. Poor people in poor areas end their miserable lives. People going home from work get delayed. Trains are cancelled. Staff get shouted at because they dont have crystal balls. Its not going to change, so my advice is to go and find a café, have a sit down and stop being so angry when compared to the poor unfortunate who died and the poor unfortunate's who have to clear up the result you have VERY little to complain about. Perhaps we should have declared a day of national mourning and stopped all work from happening anywhere. If everything is in chaos and nothing running at 21.00, for farther flung destinations (Paddington is, after all, an intercity station), we are starting to get into "last train" times. If you're a couple of hundred miles from home and your only route home is cancelled, it's a little more serious than "go to a cafe and come back later", because "later" could well be tomorrow morning. Would you be happy to be dumped in a railway station 200 miles from home overnight with nowhere to stay under such circumstances? It's not just a question of "damn the crime scene, get the trains running", there are other railway lines and other ways of getting there (eg via Waterloo, coaches). Robin |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
In message , at 08:13:21 on Tue, 5
Apr 2011, Graeme Wall remarked: This is very sad - but why so many at Southall anyway? It does seem to be a regular occurance. One theory I've seen is that many of the suicides are Asian women escaping the torments of arranged marriages. And for cultural reasons they may well find it much harder to seek help. Southall, of course, having a large population of British Asians. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/967153.stm "Asian women are three times more likely to commit suicide than the rest of the population." -- Roland Perry |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 9:31*am, bob wrote:
It's not just a question of "damn the crime scene, get the trains running", there are other railway lines and other ways of getting there (eg via Waterloo, coaches). And a passenger is ill-advised to act outside staff advice at that time of night, as if they're then stranded you can be sure "it's your own fault" will be the answer. So there needed to be staff to decide what to do and to confirm it to passengers. Neil |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
Body parts could be spread across all six tracks if a person is hit at
125mph.....it could also be a crime scene and the line would have been closed by the BTP until they are satisfied with their investigations. Then Network Rail has to clear all the body parts by bringing in the Emergency Services. Only then can they start opening lines up. If I get caught up in this sort of disruption, I usyally expect it to last at least two hours - so try & find out from staff etc what time the lines were closed & then work out my options. It can take over an hour, sometimes two to organise coaches - hence why it usually isn't worth it from Padd - by the time they are organised and ready for loading, plus the travel time to Reading - the lines are usually open - so best to wait for the trains to start running. TOCs have to get you to your destination if you arrive in good time for a train that would have taken you there...so there's NO risk of getting dumped overnight *providing* you don't wander away from the station for too long - you might miss the only train to go to where you want to be. REfreshments withinn the station are fine. Personally, my sympathies are with the driver of the affected train, along with track & emergency personnel who have to pick up the bits - not a nice job. It's something the travelling public have to accept.... |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 9:26*am, Chris wrote:
Body parts could be spread across all six tracks if a person is hit at 125mph.....it could also be a crime scene and the line would have been closed by the BTP until they are satisfied with their investigations. Then Network Rail has to clear all the body parts by bringing in the Emergency Services. Only then can they start opening lines up. If I get caught up in this sort of disruption, I usyally expect it to last at least two hours - so try & find out from staff etc what time the lines were closed & then work out my options. It can take over an hour, sometimes two to organise coaches - hence why it usually isn't worth it from Padd - by the time they are organised and ready for loading, plus the travel time to Reading - the lines are usually open - so best to wait for the trains to start running. TOCs have to get you to your destination if you arrive in good time for a train that would have taken you there...so there's NO risk of getting dumped overnight *providing* you don't wander away from the station for too long - you might miss the only train to go to where you want to be. REfreshments withinn the station are fine. Personally, my sympathies are with the driver of the affected train, along with track & emergency personnel who have to pick up the bits - not a nice job. It's something the travelling public have to accept.... Buses to Reading, for those missing last trains to S Wales, Plymouth etc) might be part of the answer? |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On 05/04/2011 08:59, Hils wrote:
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:13:21 on Tue, 5 Apr 2011, Graeme Wall remarked: This is very sad - but why so many at Southall anyway? It does seem to be a regular occurance. One theory I've seen is that many of the suicides are Asian women escaping the torments of arranged marriages. And for cultural reasons they may well find it much harder to seek help. Southall, of course, having a large population of British Asians. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/967153.stm "Asian women are three times more likely to commit suicide than the rest of the population." "One study found that the suicide rate in women aged 16-24 years was three times higher in women of Asian origin than in white British women. [...] Asian men appear to be far less vulnerable to suicide than young men from white British backgrounds." (The suicide rate among white British women is lower than in the general population. The suicide rate among men is more than three times that among women.) Actually the male suicide rate is three times that of women, not more than three. "[The] risk of suicide in unemployed men is two to three times higher than in the general population." http://www.mind.org.uk/help/research...ion_strategies Odd how we read more about Asian [sic] women being "victims" than about unemployed men. Admittedly only a quick read but I see no reference to 'victims' in that article. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
Hils wrote:
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:13:21 on Tue, 5 Apr 2011, Graeme Wall remarked: This is very sad - but why so many at Southall anyway? It does seem to be a regular occurance. One theory I've seen is that many of the suicides are Asian women escaping the torments of arranged marriages. And for cultural reasons they may well find it much harder to seek help. Southall, of course, having a large population of British Asians. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/967153.stm "Asian women are three times more likely to commit suicide than the rest of the population." "One study found that the suicide rate in women aged 16-24 years was three times higher in women of Asian origin than in white British women. [...] Asian men appear to be far less vulnerable to suicide than young men from white British backgrounds." (The suicide rate among white British women is lower than in the general population. The suicide rate among men is more than three times that among women.) "[The] risk of suicide in unemployed men is two to three times higher than in the general population." http://www.mind.org.uk/help/research...ion_strategies Odd how we read more about Asian [sic] women being "victims" than about unemployed men. I suspect that it isn't odd at all, but predetermined by our selection of what we read. Moreover, the women of Asian heritage who are driven to take their lives often have been victims of abuse from an identifiable abuser, whereas someone who is unemployed has rarely been victimised by one person, unless you are going to lay the blame for their state at the door of the person who puts the figures in the spreadsheet. -- ..sig down for maintenance |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
Neil Williams wrote:
On Apr 5, 9:31*am, bob wrote: It's not just a question of "damn the crime scene, get the trains running", there are other railway lines and other ways of getting there (eg via Waterloo, coaches). And a passenger is ill-advised to act outside staff advice at that time of night, as if they're then stranded you can be sure "it's your own fault" will be the answer. So there needed to be staff to decide what to do and to confirm it to passengers. Until those investigating at the scene have actually said, "okay, we've finished now" all rail staff can do is offer guesses, though. Information about alternative routes home could also be overtaken by events - e.g. people being directed to H&C line trains by fGW staff could find them cancelled because of overcrowding. It's very hard to come up with a one-size-fits-all answer in these circumstances, apart from "keep calm and carry on". -- ..sig down for maintenance |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 11:12*am, Chris Tolley (ukonline
really) wrote: Until those investigating at the scene have actually said, "okay, we've finished now" all rail staff can do is offer guesses, though. What they can do is offer the ability to say "we were told to do that". Which can be very useful when someone gets stuck further down the line. They can also reassure people that they aren't being ignored. The LUL requirement for a "we are being held at a red signal" announcement after N minutes (N=2?) is a good example. It does not provide useful information, but it does provide reassurance that someone gives a monkeys about the passengers and they are not just an operational inconvenience. It's very hard to come up with a one-size-fits-all answer in these circumstances, apart from "keep calm and carry on". And reassurance. The human factor is very important, but often neglected. Oddly, said human factor can sometimes be provided via technology. I find LM's Twitter feed very good for this. Neil |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
Neil Williams wrote:
On Apr 5, 11:12*am, Chris Tolley (ukonline really) wrote: Until those investigating at the scene have actually said, "okay, we've finished now" all rail staff can do is offer guesses, though. What they can do is offer the ability to say "we were told to do that". Which can be very useful when someone gets stuck further down the line. They can also reassure people that they aren't being ignored. The LUL requirement for a "we are being held at a red signal" announcement after N minutes (N=2?) is a good example. It does not provide useful information, but it does provide reassurance that someone gives a monkeys about the passengers and they are not just an operational inconvenience. Well, I'd certainly agree that an announcement every so often saying "Unfortunately we do not have any firm information about when trains will be able to leave" would convey the idea that somebody was interested in the passengers, but I can't see what else could be said when there is no information to convey. Some of the more strident comments in this thread seem to assume that managers on the scene would somehow be able to convey information that was not otherwise being conveyed. It's very hard to come up with a one-size-fits-all answer in these circumstances, apart from "keep calm and carry on". And reassurance. The human factor is very important, but often neglected. That may be a by-product of compensation culture. In the past, I reckon there was much more of a "we're all in this together" attitude, whereas nowadays, there's a prevalent, "whose fault is this and how much can I screw them for?" Oddly, said human factor can sometimes be provided via technology. I find LM's Twitter feed very good for this. So I gather from your previous postings. The only time I've bothered with Twitter (not railway related) I haven't found anything sufficiently interesting to persevere with it. -- ..sig down for maintenance |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
In message , at 08:59:10 on Tue, 5 Apr
2011, Hils remarked: "Asian women are three times more likely to commit suicide than the rest of the population." .... Odd how we read more about Asian [sic] women being "victims" than about unemployed men. Perhaps they have less dramatic/public ways of doing it. Although some believe that quite a few fatal road accidents may in fact be suicides, but rarely reported as such (modulo Ufton). -- Roland Perry |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 11:12*am, Chris Tolley (ukonline
really) wrote: Neil Williams wrote: On Apr 5, 9:31 am, bob wrote: It's not just a question of "damn the crime scene, get the trains running", there are other railway lines and other ways of getting there (eg via Waterloo, coaches). And a passenger is ill-advised to act outside staff advice at that time of night, as if they're then stranded you can be sure "it's your own fault" will be the answer. *So there needed to be staff to decide what to do and to confirm it to passengers. Until those investigating at the scene have actually said, "okay, we've finished now" all rail staff can do is offer guesses, though. Information about alternative routes home could also be overtaken by events - e.g. people being directed to H&C line trains by fGW staff could find them cancelled because of overcrowding. It's very hard to come up with a one-size-fits-all answer in these circumstances, apart from "keep calm and carry on". The problem is the railways are not following a "keep calm, carry on" approach, they are following a "pack up and go home" approach, leaving passengers stranded. There should be contingency plans for how to deal with the closure of key points on the network, ready to act on with half an hour's notice. It should be clear to management within half an hour whether the situation is a "open again in a few minutes" or "closed for the rest of the evening" situation. For management to just sit on that information and neither pass it on, nor advise passengers (who may have train-specific non flexible tickets) how to go about getting home, nor give them advice on alternative routes that are available, is bad management. Just sticking a "we're really sorry, your train is cancelled" message on the information display is not a contingency plan, and it's not keeping calm and carrying on. Robin |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 01:26:43 -0700 (PDT)
Chris wrote: Body parts could be spread across all six tracks if a person is hit at 125mph.....it could also be a crime scene and the line would have been closed by the BTP until they are satisfied with their investigations. Thats the trouble with the police in this country - every accident is a crime scene until proven otherwise no matter how trivial or how much distruption it causes. In europe you need a bloody good reason to close an entire motorway or main rail line for hours but in this country it just needs one jobsworth plod and thats it for the day. In spain last year I drove past 2 trucks that had collided head on. In this country plod would have closed the entire stretch of road for a day - in spain the police were just waving drivers past as they got on with their job. B2003 |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 11:44*am, Chris Tolley (ukonline
really) wrote: Well, I'd certainly agree that an announcement every so often saying "Unfortunately we do not have any firm information about when trains will be able to leave" would convey the idea that somebody was interested in the passengers, but I can't see what else could be said when there is no information to convey. That's roughly the same as the Tube one. It might also be worth suggesting alternatives that are known to exist as others have posted and cross-ticket acceptance arranged where sensible. But such an announcement does have value - or LU clearly believe so! And reassurance. *The human factor is very important, but often neglected. That may be a by-product of compensation culture. In the past, I reckon there was much more of a "we're all in this together" attitude, whereas nowadays, there's a prevalent, "whose fault is this and how much can I screw them for?" I disagree. It may well be that the railway used to leave people stranded or ignore them through its own self importance. That doesn't mean to say they should now. Airlines are atrocious at this, I find, the railway is rather better. Is that not a good thing? FWIW, I do not claim Delay Repay money from the railway in an event causing delay that is beyond its control, such as the one this thread is discussing; that would seem unreasonable to me. But it does seem reasonable to me that regardless of the cause of the delay the railway should assist the passengers and provide them information, even if that information is "we haven't forgotten you, but by the way there is no information". It might similarly mean that the railway isn't in a position to pay for hotel accommodation, but will assist you in finding it, for instance, or might even pay for it out of goodwill, or park a train in the platform to let people kip on there (as I believe Eurostar have done once or twice). It's not about who is strictly liable, it's about a company's moral responsibility to its customers. So I gather from your previous postings. The only time I've bothered with Twitter (not railway related) I haven't found anything sufficiently interesting to persevere with it. I haven't found a use for it other than transport information. But it does pretty well at that if the TOC do their job. I have LM, VT and Chiltern on there, and while they differ in how they work, all of them are useful. Vastly more up to date and relevant than the Nexus Alpha sites, or the now uselessly out of date NRE site. Neil |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
Neil Williams wrote:
On Apr 5, 11:44*am, Chris Tolley (ukonline really) wrote: And reassurance. *The human factor is very important, but often neglected. That may be a by-product of compensation culture. In the past, I reckon there was much more of a "we're all in this together" attitude, whereas nowadays, there's a prevalent, "whose fault is this and how much can I screw them for?" I disagree. It may well be that the railway used to leave people stranded or ignore them through its own self importance. That doesn't mean to say they should now. Airlines are atrocious at this, I find, the railway is rather better. Is that not a good thing? I wasn't talking about what the railway was up to. I was talking about the collective attitude of the public. People used to be more patient than they are now, and because there was "some such thing as society" they were probably more sympathetic. As to the railways, I am sure that corporately the view has always been that the customers should be treated well, but at the sharp end it is all very much dependent on the person on the spot, and also on the mood of the member of the public involved in the interaction. Some people can become very irate very quickly when there is nothing realistic that the railway servant could offer to ameliorate the situation. FWIW, I do not claim Delay Repay money from the railway in an event causing delay that is beyond its control, such as the one this thread is discussing; that would seem unreasonable to me. But it does seem reasonable to me that regardless of the cause of the delay the railway should assist the passengers and provide them information, even if that information is "we haven't forgotten you, but by the way there is no information". It might similarly mean that the railway isn't in a position to pay for hotel accommodation, but will assist you in finding it, for instance, or might even pay for it out of goodwill, or park a train in the platform to let people kip on there (as I believe Eurostar have done once or twice). It's not about who is strictly liable, it's about a company's moral responsibility to its customers. It's an interesting area of discussion where the moral responsibility of the railway lies in a situation where control has been wrested from it by some external contingency. Clearly enough, when the railway itself goes pear-shaped, that's where responsibility lies, but otherwise? -- ..sig down for maintenance |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
It seems to me like the OP states, that there does just to seem to be
any contingency plan for what is, unfortunatly, a regular event. When I was an old fashioned guard at Manchester Piccadilly in the early 80's the contingency manual for a blockage of all four lines south of Rugby was like the Encyclopedia Brittanica and everybody new what to do when depending on exact circumstances. Also if all the managers and high grade supervisors had gone home then a van was sent round to bring them all back again. But then of course, those were the days when, if such an occurance happened Piccadilly - Euston trains simply had a diesel hung on the front and off they went vis the Dore curve and Derby to St Pancras. Plus ca change (sorry I don't know how to do accents) |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 12:52*pm, Chris Tolley (ukonline
really) wrote: It's an interesting area of discussion where the moral responsibility of the railway lies in a situation where control has been wrested from it by some external contingency. Clearly enough, when the railway itself goes pear-shaped, that's where responsibility lies, but otherwise? I'd say it was morally the responsibility of a company to assist its customers as far as is reasonably feasible in the event of being unable, for whatever reason, to deliver the advertised service. At the very least this would extend to a refund for services not rendered and information on where else those services may be obtained, and would also extend to the provision of adequate information. To use another example, if a hotel was closed due to being subject to an arson attack, it might be reasonable for the hotel to have a member of staff on hand (or at least a notice saying how to contact one there and then, perhaps at a nearby hotel of the same chain) who could give out information on where else they might be able to stay, as such information is often hard to come by late at night. In situations where a civil emergency is going on (say an earthquake) what can be done is rather limited, of course. But we aren't talking about that, we're talking about the closure of part (not all) of the railway system. Neil |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
"Hils" wrote in message
Chris Tolley wrote: Hils wrote: Odd how we read more about Asian [sic] women being "victims" than about unemployed men. I suspect that it isn't odd at all, but predetermined by our selection of what we read. Moreover, the women of Asian heritage who are driven to take their lives often have been victims of abuse from an identifiable abuser, whereas someone who is unemployed has rarely been victimised by one person, unless you are going to lay the blame for their state at the door of the person who puts the figures in the spreadsheet. Semantic sophistry. Asian-heritage women choose to stay in abusive environments. If some of them don't understand enough about British culture or the English language to go to the police or social services before they reach the stage of stepping in front of a train, the questions to be asked are why don't they understand those things? I've read that these are educated women imported from the subcontinent for arranged marriages to young men who turn out not to live up to their billing (less eductaed than claimed, or much older/uglier). Their families would lose face if they returned home to India, and they have no local support network here to help when they're bullied by their mothers-in-law who treat them little better than slaves. |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On 5 avr, 12:11, Neil Williams wrote:
On Apr 5, 11:44*am, Chris *Tolley (ukonline really) wrote: Well, I'd certainly agree that an announcement every so often saying "Unfortunately we do not have any firm information about when trains will be able to leave" would convey the idea that somebody was interested in the passengers, but I can't see what else could be said when there is no information to convey. That's roughly the same as the Tube one. *It might also be worth suggesting alternatives that are known to exist as others have posted and cross-ticket acceptance arranged where sensible. *But such an announcement does have value - or LU clearly believe so! And reassurance. *The human factor is very important, but often neglected. That may be a by-product of compensation culture. In the past, I reckon there was much more of a "we're all in this together" attitude, whereas nowadays, there's a prevalent, "whose fault is this and how much can I screw them for?" I disagree. *It may well be that the railway used to leave people stranded or ignore them through its own self importance. *That doesn't mean to say they should now. *Airlines are atrocious at this, I find, the railway is rather better. *Is that not a good thing? FWIW, I do not claim Delay Repay money from the railway in an event causing delay that is beyond its control, such as the one this thread is discussing; that would seem unreasonable to me. *But it does seem reasonable to me that regardless of the cause of the delay the railway should assist the passengers and provide them information, even if that information is "we haven't forgotten you, but by the way there is no information". *It might similarly mean that the railway isn't in a position to pay for hotel accommodation, but will assist you in finding it, for instance, or might even pay for it out of goodwill, or park a train in the platform to let people kip on there (as I believe Eurostar have done once or twice). *It's not about who is strictly liable, it's about a company's moral responsibility to its customers. So I gather from your previous postings. The only time I've bothered with Twitter (not railway related) I haven't found anything sufficiently interesting to persevere with it. I haven't found a use for it other than transport information. *But it does pretty well at that if the TOC do their job. *I have LM, VT and Chiltern on there, and while they differ in how they work, all of them are useful. *Vastly more up to date and relevant than the Nexus Alpha sites, or the now uselessly out of date NRE site. Neil My railway experience of yesteryear was that in general the system was flexible to the point where trains could be provided at very little notice. In those days of course, the railway staff themselves were very much users of the system as their primary ( and free) means of daily transport. Todays railways by their basic organisation is less able to react at short notice and has resurrected all the petty weaknesses of mid 19th century wars of access and running rights! |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 12:53*pm, Sailor wrote:
On 5 avr, 12:11, Neil Williams wrote: On Apr 5, 11:44*am, Chris *Tolley (ukonline really) wrote: Well, I'd certainly agree that an announcement every so often saying "Unfortunately we do not have any firm information about when trains will be able to leave" would convey the idea that somebody was interested in the passengers, but I can't see what else could be said when there is no information to convey. That's roughly the same as the Tube one. *It might also be worth suggesting alternatives that are known to exist as others have posted and cross-ticket acceptance arranged where sensible. *But such an announcement does have value - or LU clearly believe so! And reassurance. *The human factor is very important, but often neglected. That may be a by-product of compensation culture. In the past, I reckon there was much more of a "we're all in this together" attitude, whereas nowadays, there's a prevalent, "whose fault is this and how much can I screw them for?" I disagree. *It may well be that the railway used to leave people stranded or ignore them through its own self importance. *That doesn't mean to say they should now. *Airlines are atrocious at this, I find, the railway is rather better. *Is that not a good thing? FWIW, I do not claim Delay Repay money from the railway in an event causing delay that is beyond its control, such as the one this thread is discussing; that would seem unreasonable to me. *But it does seem reasonable to me that regardless of the cause of the delay the railway should assist the passengers and provide them information, even if that information is "we haven't forgotten you, but by the way there is no information". *It might similarly mean that the railway isn't in a position to pay for hotel accommodation, but will assist you in finding it, for instance, or might even pay for it out of goodwill, or park a train in the platform to let people kip on there (as I believe Eurostar have done once or twice). *It's not about who is strictly liable, it's about a company's moral responsibility to its customers. So I gather from your previous postings. The only time I've bothered with Twitter (not railway related) I haven't found anything sufficiently interesting to persevere with it. I haven't found a use for it other than transport information. *But it does pretty well at that if the TOC do their job. *I have LM, VT and Chiltern on there, and while they differ in how they work, all of them are useful. *Vastly more up to date and relevant than the Nexus Alpha sites, or the now uselessly out of date NRE site. Neil My railway experience of yesteryear was that in general the system was flexible to the point where trains could be provided at very little notice. In those days of course, the railway staff *themselves were very much users of the system as their primary ( and free) means of daily transport. *Todays railways by their basic organisation is less able to react at short notice *and has resurrected all the petty weaknesses of mid 19th century wars of access and running rights! What would Gerry Fiennes have done?? |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
"tony" wrote What would Gerry Fiennes have done?? Get the Spitalfields Pilot out to drag the failure up the bank to Bethnal Green Shunt the truck train for the express (unless Masher May was on the front of the truck train, it was a Saturday morning, and March Town were playing at home). What he wouldn't do is to forget to tell Upminster that the direct line to Pitsea was blocked by a derailment and everything would have to be diverted via Ockendon and Tilbury. Peter |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
Hils wrote:
Chris Tolley wrote: Hils wrote: Odd how we read more about Asian [sic] women being "victims" than about unemployed men. women of Asian heritage who are driven to take their lives often have been victims of abuse from an identifiable abuser Asian-heritage women choose to stay in abusive environments. If some of them don't understand enough about British culture or the English language to go to the police or social services before they reach the stage of stepping in front of a train, the questions to be asked are why don't they understand those things? They may not even understand the language. How on earth do you suppose they are meant to understand the support structures? NB There is ample information about specific cases out there if you actually do wish to become informed, rather than to engage in wordplay. -- ..sig down for maintenance |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On 5 Apr, 10:51, bob wrote:
The problem is the railways are not following a "keep calm, carry on" approach, they are following a "pack up and go home" approach, leaving passengers stranded. *There should be contingency plans for how to deal with the closure of key points on the network, ready to act on with half an hour's notice. *It should be clear to management within half an hour whether the situation is a "open again in a few minutes" or "closed for the rest of the evening" situation. Don't agree. A suicide could be cleared up in 30 minutes, it could take five hours (if the train couldn't be moved, for example), or any time in-between.....they DO NOT know until the BTP give NR the clearance - then they can start guesstimating. But the BTP, rightly in my view - sorry - refuse to guesstimate saying it'll take as long as it takes. Your dealing with an horrific death here, not a broken down train. *For management to just sit on that information and neither pass it on, nor advise passengers (who may have train-specific non flexible tickets) how to go about getting home, nor give them advice on alternative routes that are available, is bad management. *Just sticking a "we're really sorry, your train is cancelled" message on the information display is not a contingency plan, and it's not keeping calm and carrying on. Yes, it is. The real problem is Joe Public's complete lack of patience these days. Previously, they'd work it out for themselves that the likely delay is a couple of hours, do I want to try a different route or shall I wait - but with the advent of e-everything, they expect instantaneous answers. Well, in this case, someone's life comes before someone's trip home. BTW - THIS PERSON LIVED LASST NIGHT...... |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
"SB" wrote in message ... Sadly there was yet another person hit by a train at Southall on Monday evening (yesterday). http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/co...c=669.msg87663 This is very sad - but why so many at Southall anyway? It does seem to be a regular occurance. Anyway you would have thought that First Great Western might have had a contingency plan for such occurrences by now. I suspect they had. BTP's target time for reopening a railway after a fatality is 2 hours. If you could get a fleet of buses to Paddington to take all the passengers it would almost certainly take the best part of 2 hours. So no point. It would also be likely to take nearly as long to call in off duty managers and staff from home. Again no point. What should have been done is to keep passengers informed as far as possible (via tannoy and screens), reassure those with connections down the line to contact the conductor when they do get away, so that arrangements (hold last connections, arrange taxis) can be made. Make tickets available on LUL and SWT and advise passengers for Heathrow that they may travel via LUL and that passengers may also make their way to Waterloo for Windsor, Reading, via Basingstoke, etc. Trains in the station, which would be the first ones out when the line reopened, should be loaded - so they can be got away quickly when this becomes possible, and, to the seating capacity of the trains, to give passengers somewhere warm to sit and wait. Presumably the Greenford shuttle kept running until end of service, carrying passengers to Acton Main Line, Ealing Broadway, West Ealing, and the Greenford branch If there was a train crew with route knowledge via Banbury after the Christmas diversions, a train to Bristol or Siouth Wales should have been diverted via Banbury, calling at Oxford, Swindon and usual stations. I'll leave it to BAA and the airlines how they cope when passengers arrive late at Heathrow because BAA's HEx and HConn trains were not running. Peter |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On 5 Apr, 14:32, Chris wrote:
On 5 Apr, 10:51, bob wrote: The problem is the railways are not following a "keep calm, carry on" approach, they are following a "pack up and go home" approach, leaving passengers stranded. *There should be contingency plans for how to deal with the closure of key points on the network, ready to act on with half an hour's notice. *It should be clear to management within half an hour whether the situation is a "open again in a few minutes" or "closed for the rest of the evening" situation. Don't agree. A suicide could be cleared up in 30 minutes, it could take five hours (if the train couldn't be moved, for example), or any time in-between.....they DO NOT know until the BTP give NR the clearance - then they can start guesstimating. But the BTP, rightly in my view - sorry - refuse to guesstimate saying it'll take as long as it takes. Your dealing with an horrific death here, not a broken down train. *For management to just sit on that information and neither pass it on, nor advise passengers (who may have train-specific non flexible tickets) how to go about getting home, nor give them advice on alternative routes that are available, is bad management. *Just sticking a "we're really sorry, your train is cancelled" message on the information display is not a contingency plan, and it's not keeping calm and carrying on. Yes, it is. The real problem is Joe Public's complete lack of patience these days. Previously, they'd work it out for themselves that the likely delay is a couple of hours, do I want to try a different route or shall I wait - but with the advent of e-everything, they expect instantaneous answers. Well, in this case, someone's life comes before someone's trip home. BTW - THIS PERSON LIVED LAST NIGHT...... Indeed, they did. THe only complaint I see that sticks here is that there weren't sufficient staff available. Don't forget this station is operated by Network Rail, so FGW don't have info staff available, just ops.... |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
"SB" wrote in message ... Sadly there was yet another person hit by a train at Southall on Monday evening (yesterday). http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/co...c=669.msg87663 This is very sad - but why so many at Southall anyway? It does seem to be a regular occurance. Anyway you would have thought that First Great Western might have had a contingency plan for such occurrences by now. Meanwhile the northbound M11 was closed for 15 hours after an accident. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-12968479 I don't know how long it took to release vehicles trapped behind the accident. No doubt many passengers missed planes at Stansted. Peter |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 14:22:31 +0100
Chris Tolley (ukonline really) wrote: They may not even understand the language. How on earth do you suppose They could always try learning it. Just a thought... B2003 |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 14:42:54 +0100
"Peter Masson" wrote: Meanwhile the northbound M11 was closed for 15 hours after an accident. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-12968479 I don't know how long it took to release vehicles trapped behind the accident. No doubt many passengers missed planes at Stansted. Apart from the inconvenience, lost business, pollution and a host of other problems it causes, thats a number of police tied up for 15 hours, and for what? So they can apportion blame, thats what. They're so desperate to nick somebody they engage in this farcical behaviour. Its time the home office stepped in and gave the chief constables a good slapping. B2003 |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
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Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 3:32*pm, Chris wrote:
On 5 Apr, 10:51, bob wrote: The problem is the railways are not following a "keep calm, carry on" approach, they are following a "pack up and go home" approach, leaving passengers stranded. *There should be contingency plans for how to deal with the closure of key points on the network, ready to act on with half an hour's notice. *It should be clear to management within half an hour whether the situation is a "open again in a few minutes" or "closed for the rest of the evening" situation. Don't agree. A suicide could be cleared up in 30 minutes, it could take five hours (if the train couldn't be moved, for example), or any time in-between.....they DO NOT know until the BTP give NR the clearance - then they can start guesstimating. But the BTP, rightly in my view - sorry - refuse to guesstimate saying it'll take as long as it takes. Evidence would suggest that the disruption resulting from such an event will last for several hours. In the case of an evening disruption, it will likely persist until the end of services that day. THIS SHUOLD BE IN THE CONTINGENCY PLAN. Along with contacts at management of alternative routes, phone numbers for getting in coaches to bypass the closed section of line, instructions for posting this information on the display boards at Paddington, the phone number of the guy at Paddington who can make announcements over the PA system, and the phone numbers of people who need to get to Paddington to help stranded passengers. Your dealing with an horrific death here, not a broken down train. In terms of giving passengers information, adivce on alternative routes, and getting them past a closed line, it is irrelevant whether the line is closed because of a suicide, a collapsed viaduct or some gas bottles in a building fire. The effect on the passengers is the same, and the solution is the same. *For management to just sit on that information and neither pass it on, nor advise passengers (who may have train-specific non flexible tickets) how to go about getting home, nor give them advice on alternative routes that are available, is bad management. *Just sticking a "we're really sorry, your train is cancelled" message on the information display is not a contingency plan, and it's not keeping calm and carrying on. Yes, it is. The real problem is Joe Public's complete lack of patience these days. Previously, they'd work it out for themselves that the likely delay is a couple of hours, do I want to try a different route or shall I wait - but with the advent of e-everything, they expect instantaneous answers. The problem is the lack of customer service. Passengers are sold train-specific tickets with £100+ penalties for using the wrong train. Passengers may not know what alternative options might be available. Passengers might hope that the problem can be resolved reasonably quickly [1]. The railway company has the ability to arrange to have train specific tickets honoured on alternative routes (eg Waterloo-Reading, Waterloo-Exeter). The railway company knows what alternative routes exist. The railway has a reasonable estimate of how long the disruption is likely to last. There are several automated information distribution systems at Paddington that could provide this kind of information that were not used, and no attempt was made to inform the pitifully few staff on the ground of the information that passengers might want to know. [1] Lots of times when I was based in Cambridge, when I'd turn up at King's Cross to find some kind of problem on the next Cambridge train, I would have no idea whether it was a problem with this particular train, and I should wait for the next one, or if the whole ECML was screwed (eg wires down at Stevenage), and I should go to Liverpool Street. As someone who knows a bit about the railways, I could usually figure out, but on those occasions when going to Liverpool Street was the right solution, the lack of other people doing the same thing indicated that I was in a small minority. Well, in this case, someone's life comes before someone's trip home. But on a competently run railway, there should not be this either/or choice. The situation at Southall can be resolved, and passengers can get home on alternative routes, or by bus/coach. That this did not happen is due to bad management. BTW - THIS PERSON LIVED LASST NIGHT...... BUT YOU SAID IT WAS AN HORRIFIC DEATH |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 3:32*pm, Chris wrote:
Well, in this case, someone's life comes before someone's trip home. Emotive nonsense; staff at the station might be dealing with a broken rail, or an OHLE failure, or a complete signalling breakdown, or any one of a number of things. The cause is largely irrelevant to the provision of effective passenger information, which is the issue. As I said, they may not be able to say when it will end, though presumably there are degrees of this sort of thing and the BTP might be able to give an idea between 2 hours and "not until tomorrow" - in the former case you probably won't need buses, in the latter you probably will. Staff at the station are not dealing with the deceased, that's the BTP's job. Staff at the station are dealing with severe disruption, the reason for which is in many ways irrelevant. Neil |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On Apr 5, 4:23*pm, bob wrote:
[1] Lots of times when I was based in Cambridge, when I'd turn up at King's Cross to find some kind of problem on the next Cambridge train, I would have no idea whether it was a problem with this particular train, and I should wait for the next one, or if the whole ECML was screwed (eg wires down at Stevenage), and I should go to Liverpool Street. * Try dealing with that when travelling by air, when airlines will pretty much point blank refuse to tell you what is actually going on. "Late arrival of the inbound aircraft" is not a helpful piece of information, and it may as well not be given. But why not give a useful piece of information that passengers can use to work out how long it's likely to be? A couple of months ago I spent about 3 hours standing at a gate at Geneva airport as the delay minutes went up by 20 minutes every 20 minutes. This is silly; I could have gone to a restaurant and eaten had they told me the aircraft hadn't even left Luton yet - that would give a minimum of an hour and a half. But nobody knew or was willing to say. Neil |
Massive Disruption at Paddington - Very Badly Handled Yet Again
On 5 Apr., 15:32, Chris wrote:
Yes, it is. The real problem is Joe Public's complete lack of patience these days. Previously, they'd work it out for themselves that the likely delay is a couple of hours, do I want to try a different route or shall I wait - Interesting point. I wonder, wether the staff at Waterloo would be aware of what was going on and letting Reading passengers onto the corresponding train for example? In the past it would have taken one phone call from Paddington to Waterloo to set that up, but do the railways still think like that? |
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