Blackfriars
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 10:27:29 on Sun, 22 May
2011, Clive Page remarked:

That's the price of progress, of course: before they plonked the shopping
centre in St.Pancras you could easily change from Picc line to Thameslink
in under 3 minutes using the now abandoned station.

The change they made was moving the Thameslink station. It's as far south
as it could be now, given the curvature of the tunnels. The whole thing's
a mess, frankly. Perhaps the entrance to the new Thameslink station could
have been close by the Eurostar check-in, rather than halfway to Camden.

Then you'd have 'end fed' 12 car platforms, with all the resultant
congestion - and ensuing failure to spread passengers along the whole train.
There seem to be valid reasons for the position of the main Thameslink
entrance.

Paul S

Blackfriars
 

In message , at 11:52:00 on
Sun, 22 May 2011, Paul Scott remarked:

The change they made was moving the Thameslink station. It's as far
south as it could be now, given the curvature of the tunnels. The
whole thing's a mess, frankly. Perhaps the entrance to the new
Thameslink station could have been close by the Eurostar check-in,
rather than halfway to Camden.

Then you'd have 'end fed' 12 car platforms, with all the resultant
congestion - and ensuing failure to spread passengers along the whole
train. There seem to be valid reasons for the position of the main
Thameslink entrance.

But only for passengers arriving via the concourse. There could also
have been a communicating tunnel between the Northern Ticket Hall and
the Thameslink platforms, for tube passengers, to balance it out.
--
Roland Perry

Blackfriars
 

On May 22, 12:22*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 11:52:00 on
Sun, 22 May 2011, Paul Scott remarked:

The change they made was moving the Thameslink station. It's as far
south *as it could be now, given the curvature of the tunnels. The
whole thing's*a mess, frankly. Perhaps the entrance to the new
Thameslink station could*have been close by the Eurostar check-in,
rather than halfway to Camden.

Then you'd have 'end fed' 12 car platforms, with all the resultant
congestion - and ensuing failure to spread passengers along the whole
train. There seem to be valid reasons for the position of the main
Thameslink entrance.

But only for passengers arriving via the concourse. There could also
have been a communicating tunnel between the Northern Ticket Hall and
the Thameslink platforms, for tube passengers, to balance it out.

Right through the sewer?

Blackfriars
 

On May 22, 10:27*am, Clive Page wrote:

On 22/05/2011 08:50, Walter Briscoe wrote:

I think JP is unduly pessimistic in advising 13 minutes between KXX
Piccadilly and STP. I believe it nearer 5 - particularly if you leave
from carriage 2, door 2 which is nearest the Northern Ticket Hall.

I agree that 13 minutes is too generous but I interchange frequently
between Thameslink and Piccadily Lines at St Pancras and my experience
is that the old western route is faster than the one via the Northern
Ticket Hall, probably by 1 to 1.5 minutes; on the other hand the
Northern Ticket Hall route is less congested because because it's
somewhat tucked away. *To save most time on the Western route you need
to be in the last carriage of the northbound Picc line train.

Interesting - my mental picture is that for Picc to Thameslink the
shortest way would be via the northern ticket hall (NTH) - but I bow
to your superior knowledge on that one.


If you walk fast, and walk up/down all three escalators, you can do the
interchange in about 7 minutes; to do it faster than that would involve
running, and with all the gormless Eurostar passengers infesting the
shopping arcade usually known as St.Pancras this would be very tricky.

Avoided by going the northern ticket hall route of course.


Changing from the Circle line station to Thameslink can be done in about
5 minutes in my experience, but if you are coming on the circle line
from the east it's certainly much faster to change at Farringdon (but
one of the staircases there is out of use at present making it take
longer than it used to).

Coming from the west though it's still quicker to change at KXSP / St
Pancras - from KXSP to Farringdon on the sub-surface lines it's a 3/4
minute run, ditto Farringdon to St Pancras on Thameslink. For those
with time / luggage / mobility impairments, Farringdon remains the
easier interchange of course.


That's the price of progress, of course: before they plonked the
shopping centre in St.Pancras you could easily change from Picc line to
Thameslink in under 3 minutes using the now abandoned station.

Which got very (of not stupidly) overcrowded during the peaks. Given
how busy KX Thameslink was, and how the opportunity of having a new
spacious station at St Pancras arose, and the need to accommodate 12-
car trains in the not too distance future, and the expected growth in
passenger numbers as part of Thameslink 2000 (sorry, the Thameslink
Programme), it's hardly any surprise that the station moved. Anyway, a
short walk never did anyone any harm (...cue slew of examples to the
contrary!).

Blackfriars
 

In message
m, at 06:05:42 on Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T remarked:
There could also have been a communicating tunnel between the Northern
Ticket Hall and the Thameslink platforms, for tube passengers, to balance
it out.

Right through the sewer?

Apparently it was already diverted (see bottom of page 1) and it's only a
foot tunnel needed.

http://www.bacsol.co.uk/images/uploa...5StPancras.pdf
--
Roland Perry

Blackfriars
 

In message
, at
06:28:39 on Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T remarked:
Interesting - my mental picture is that for Picc to Thameslink the
shortest way would be via the northern ticket hall (NTH) - but I bow
to your superior knowledge on that one.

Why use a mental picture when I have a real one :)

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/kx-composite.jpg

The old route is perhaps 10% shorter, but both include significant
dog-legs.
--
Roland Perry

Blackfriars
 

On May 22, 2:32*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
m, at 06:05:42 on Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T remarked:

There could also *have been a communicating tunnel between the Northern
Ticket Hall and *the Thameslink platforms, for tube passengers, to balance
it out.

Right through the sewer?

Apparently it was already diverted (see bottom of page 1) and it's only a
foot tunnel needed.

http://www.bacsol.co.uk/images/uploa...5StPancras.pdf

AIUI it was indeed diverted a bit, but it remains very much in the way
- the following plans of the KX station redevelopment (courtesy of
Paul Scott who dug them out from the LB Camden planning website) show
the Fleet Sewer - see the second and third pages (sub-basement and
basement) - n.b. large 7MB+ file:
http://sites.google.com/site/miztert/Home/KingsCrossdrawings.pdf

We kinda had this discussion a year ago - in a thread unintuitively
titled "Oyster PAYG":
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...ffc108d03a952/

I agree that a basement / sub-surface link between the northern ticket
hall and the Thameslink mezzanine (i.e. a continuation of the NTH-St
Pancras link tunnel underneath the east-west 'farmer' market'
concourse) does on the face of it make sense - however I think the
presence of this major sewer does rather torpedo that idea, as it's
right bang slap in the way.

Blackfriars
 

On May 22, 3:12*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
, at
06:28:39 on Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T remarked:

Interesting - my mental picture is that for Picc to Thameslink the
shortest way would be via the northern ticket hall (NTH) - but I bow
to your superior knowledge on that one.

Why use a mental picture when I have a real one :)

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/kx-composite.jpg

The old route is perhaps 10% shorter, but both include significant
dog-legs.

Yes, that's what I was after, but I failed to find it!

Another issue of course is which way the signs (try and) send you -
Victoria to Northern line it directs you via the NTH I think - not a
very direct route...

If one was starting from scratch one wouldn't have made the KXSP
complex like this - but of course if one was starting from scratch so
much else would be different too.

Blackfriars
 

On Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T wrote:

We kinda had this discussion a year ago - in a thread unintuitively
titled "Oyster PAYG":
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...ffc108d03a952/

Well, at least we're now having it in one titled, er, no hang on a minute ...

tom

--
this news group concentrate the debil of usenet -- uk.local.london motto

Blackfriars
 

On May 22, 8:01*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
..
On Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T wrote:
We kinda had this discussion a year ago - in a thread unintuitively
titled "Oyster PAYG":
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...se_frm/thread/....

Well, at least we're now having it in one titled, er, no hang on a minute ...

It's all subterfuge to misdirect the urb-exers from finding clues to
the portal giving access to the magic kingdom (aka the manhole to the
Fleet sewer) underneath the Yo-Sushi pot washing sink at the back of
St P...