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Summer holidays
Do a lot of underground operations staff go on holiday during the
summer, with station manning requirements reduced to allow this, or are they required to spread their holidays out evenly through the year? |
Summer holidays
I'm not sure that summer makes that much difference. Whilst there are less
workers, there are more tourists about and there are also more children (on school holidays) travelling around, although perhaps not as many to make up for the drop in workers. A brief leave explanation, as the standard always gets it wrong! Drivers have eight weeks off a year allocated to them. When there are strikes etc. in the offing, LU like to quote this as "8 weeks holidays" to try to make it look good. In fact, this is made up of normal holidays, days off in lieu of working bank holidays, Banked Rest Days (drivers are paid for a 35 hour week, but work 36 hours, the additional hour per week works out at 6 BRDs a year), and any odd days they might be owed for any reason. The actual amount of time due may vary slightly either way and is adjusted locally. Because of the large amount of drivers at a depot, this eight weeks is spread over four two week periods (Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter), and is spread out over a rota basis over 48 weeks with drivers rostered to cover the periods of leave as part of their rostered duties. The odd four weeks left of the year is used to cover any drivers outstanding odd days, leave previously owed etc. I don't know about the station side, but from what I've understood in the past, there is more flexibility in when station staff take their leave because there is not enough of them in a group to take up a whole year between them. Station staff get the same leave entitlement as drivers, but may work more unpaid hours and thus get more BRDs. I'm not sure if station staff leave is allocated to specific rostered leave periods when staff must take their leave, or if staff generally just apply in advance for time off, like managers do. Obviously when leave is taken would be restricted to when cover is available, but I assume that, like most people, more staff would like to take some of their leave in the summer when the schools are on holiday and the weather is (possibly!) better than the winter. So, the answer is, maybe! A bit of a lengthy answer, but staff leave etc. is something that is often misquoted in the press etc. Roger *From:* Basil Jet *Date:* Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:21:47 +0100 Do a lot of underground operations staff go on holiday during the summer, with station manning requirements reduced to allow this, or are they required to spread their holidays out evenly through the year? |
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*From:* Roland Perry
*Date:* Fri, 22 Jul 2011 13:08:34 +0100 In message , at 06:17:31 on Fri, 22 Jul 2011, remarked: Because of the large amount of drivers at a depot, this eight weeks is spread over four two week periods (Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter), and is spread out over a rota basis over 48 weeks with drivers rostered to cover the periods of leave as part of their rostered duties. The odd four weeks left of the year is used to cover any drivers outstanding odd days, leave previously owed etc. I don't know about the station side, but from what I've understood in the past, there is more flexibility in when station staff take their leave because there is not enough of them in a group to take up a whole year between them. How flexible are the employers when staff want to take unexpected leave. Not just funerals, but perhaps having to wait in for a delivery or repair man, when the day that's scheduled is at short notice? -- Roland Perry Again, a long post to try and give some background. The short answer is that on the train side, there's virtually no flexibility, and that's not the fault of the (local) managers. Over the years, the amount of pool drivers at depots has been cut. Pool drivers are literally a pool of a few drivers at a depot who are over and above the roster and they would normally be used to cover such things as known sickness, some additional training for existing drivers (the annual training refresher that drivers get is built in to the roster, so that isn't a problem), Drivers that are being released so they can train others, and all sorts of other reasons. There are also Spare duties built into the roster. An example of this is at one depot, there are 135 duties booking on on a week day. Of these, 22 are spare duties and 113 are running (driving duties). The idea of spare duties is to avoid trains being cancelled. 22 spares might seem a lot, but they can be used for all sorts of things, including: Changing over a defective train so that the driver bringing in the defective train has a good one to take back and the train isn't cancelled on the next trip, Taking a train that may otherwise be cancelled because the service is running late and the relieving driver may still be on their train somewhere else. Relieving a driver in various circumstances such as when the driver has a SPAD, a one-under, is assaulted, has an accident on duty, or the driver becomes ill on the train. Relieving a driver that needs to be interviewed for whatever reason, or for a disciplinary interview (aka Bollocking!) etc. Starting off a duty where the driver hasn't booked on yet (is late) Doing part (or all) of a duty where the driver is known to be not booking on, either from a phone call that has been received that day or the driver is known to be sick. The list is really endless. A driver can be driving their train within 7 minutes of booking on. If the driver hasn't turned up in time, then a spare driver has to be put on the train. Because of the low number of pool drivers, there may be known uncovered duties that pool drivers would normally cover. These will be shown as no driver on the daily booking-on sheet and as that is using a spare up straight away. There can be times when, for whatever reason, there are several uncovered duties on the sheet. Straight away, the depot manager knows that he's "in the shift for coverage" that day! As a consequence of everything being so tight, a driver requesting time out "or special leave" as it's known) may be refused. This is the same for whether the special leave is at the beginning or end of the duty, or for a day or more. If it's for a day in advance and cover is available, it might be possible for that person to arrange to take a day or more of their leave at that time. In which case, that time off would be shown as leave and he would be paid as normal and it wouldn't go against them. This is normally the case if more than the allowed time off for funerals is required. One of the few exceptions for not granting special leave would be a funeral. A driver phoning in to say that they have to wait in because somebody is late turing up, a plumber etc. is late finishing, they have to pick up their children from school etc. will normally be given short shrift and told to "be in on time or you'll be booked" because if they're not in on time, it may be that their train (or another train later because a spare is already being used) is cancelled. Of course, it might be that the driver who is not granted the time off takes it off anyway. Either way the train driving still has to be covered. It may be that a genuine driver (as opposed to the known ****-takers) will be "let off" by the manager when they eventually book on if no trains have been cancelled as a consequence, but it doesn't happen very often. These days, all items of sickness and absence for whatever reason and lateness (especially when a train is cancelled) are booked as items against that person. When being disciplined, the list of items is brought up and looked at. Some items, such as a funeral (a copy of the death certificate may be requested) may not be counted. Occasionally a sickness may not be counted, but most are, even with a doctors certificate. There is no guarantee that a hospital stay (with hospital certificate) would not be counted. Even if some items are discounted, there is always the holistic report where discounted items could be looked at and, if there was a pattern, a driver could still face a review and possibly disciplinary action. There are very strict limits as to how many items you can have within a certain short timescale, and it is very easy to get on the slippery slope to a potential sacking I assume the same process applies to the station side, however there is the potential for there to be a bit more flexibility for being late as no trains are cancelled. As long as the station doesn't have to close, either because there will still be more than the minimum number of staff, or because another member of staff in the same grade is willing to do overtime until the person comes in. It doesn't mean that any items won't get counted, though. Roger |
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"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 09:02:41 on Fri, 22 Jul 2011, remarked: One of the few exceptions for not granting special leave would be a funeral. A driver phoning in to say that they have to wait in because somebody is late turing up, a plumber etc. is late finishing, they have to pick up their children from school etc. will normally be given short shrift and told to "be in on time or you'll be booked" All very interesting stuff. Thanks. Must be quite a problem for drivers to see a GP if it's one of those surgeries where you can't get an appointment (even for non-urgent things) until you try calling the reception at 8am the same day. So they go to the doctors on a day when they are on lates. I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who got into trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the last minute). The simple solution to this is to NOT get yourself into that position. If your work commitments are such that you have to have a completion on a particular set of dates then you "offer" on that basis. In the worst case, why does someone actually need to be present when a removals firm is moving you? |
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In message , at 18:09:34 on Fri, 22 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked: All very interesting stuff. Thanks. Must be quite a problem for drivers to see a GP if it's one of those surgeries where you can't get an appointment (even for non-urgent things) until you try calling the reception at 8am the same day. So they go to the doctors on a day when they are on lates. It may not be possible to wait until a day when they are both "on lates", and calling at 8am manages to get you an appointment. I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who got into trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the last minute). The simple solution to this is to NOT get yourself into that position. Very easy to say, but I'm sure there are people whose jobs are even less flexible. If your work commitments are such that you have to have a completion on a particular set of dates then you "offer" on that basis. In the worst case, why does someone actually need to be present when a removals firm is moving you? Yes, you do. There's more involved than just shifting a bit of furniture. -- Roland Perry |
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In message , at 18:04:41 on Fri, 22 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked: How flexible are the employers when staff want to take unexpected leave. Not just funerals, but perhaps having to wait in for a delivery or repair man, when the day that's scheduled is at short notice? The funeral is obviously something that they can't control, but assuming that staff often get their "normal" days off during the week expecting not to arrange deliveries/doctors appointments etc on those days is dammed unreasonable. Thanks for you opinion, which is useful because I'm trying to collect a range of views (and not just from here). -- Roland Perry |
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In message , at 06:17:31
on Fri, 22 Jul 2011, remarked: drivers are paid for a 35 hour week, but work 36 hours Is that spread over s 5-day week, or four? -- Roland Perry |
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In article ,
Roland Perry wrote: I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who got into trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the last minute). The amount of leeway in such things does seem to vary a lot from one industry to another. I'm sure most employers would allow it if they were warned in advance. I had to do it a while ago and the company were fine. It must be difficult though with industries which are tightly manned such as, of course, LUL. Nick -- Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010) "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 |
Summer holidays
wrote in message ...
As a consequence of everything being so tight, a driver requesting time out "or special leave" as it's known) may be refused. This is the same for whether the special leave is at the beginning or end of the duty, or for a day or more. If it's for a day in advance and cover is available, it might be possible for that person to arrange to take a day or more of their leave at that time. In which case, that time off would be shown as leave and he would be paid as normal and it wouldn't go against them. This is normally the case if more than the allowed time off for funerals is required. One of the few exceptions for not granting special leave would be a funeral. A driver phoning in to say that they have to wait in because somebody is late turing up, a plumber etc. is late finishing, they have to pick up their children from school etc. will normally be given short shrift and told to "be in on time or you'll be booked" because if they're not in on time, it may be that their train (or another train later because a spare is already being used) is cancelled. Is it possible for drivers to agree to swap shifts with each other? Peter Smyth |
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In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: *From:* Roland Perry *Date:* Fri, 22 Jul 2011 15:37:02 +0100 In message , at 09:02:41 on Fri, 22 Jul 2011, remarked: One of the few exceptions for not granting special leave would be a funeral. A driver phoning in to say that they have to wait in because somebody is late turing up, a plumber etc. is late finishing, they have to pick up their children from school etc. will normally be given short shrift and told to "be in on time or you'll be booked" All very interesting stuff. Thanks. Must be quite a problem for drivers to see a GP if it's one of those surgeries where you can't get an appointment (even for non-urgent things) until you try calling the reception at 8am the same day. I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who got into trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the last minute). The amount of leeway in such things does seem to vary a lot from one industry to another. -- Roland Perry The short notice (depending how short) would have been the problem. Normally moving house is a day you are allowed to take off if sufficient notice is given. I think that there is an agreement that this is a paid day, and is limited to one every X (10?) years. Roger |
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*From:* "Peter Smyth"
*Date:* Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:21:52 +0100 wrote in message ... As a consequence of everything being so tight, a driver requesting time out "or special leave" as it's known) may be refused. This is the same for whether the special leave is at the beginning or end of the duty, or for a day or more. If it's for a day in advance and cover is available, it might be possible for that person to arrange to take a day or more of their leave at that time. In which case, that time off would be shown as leave and he would be paid as normal and it wouldn't go against them. This is normally the case if more than the allowed time off for funerals is required. One of the few exceptions for not granting special leave would be a funeral. A driver phoning in to say that they have to wait in because somebody is late turing up, a plumber etc. is late finishing, they have to pick up their children from school etc. will normally be given short shrift and told to "be in on time or you'll be booked" because if they're not in on time, it may be that their train (or another train later because a spare is already being used) is cancelled. Is it possible for drivers to agree to swap shifts with each other? Peter Smyth Drivers can swap shifts, and indeed many do, especially those who like to work at certain times of the day, such as lates, earlies or middles. You can also swap rest days. The problem is getting somebody to change with you at the last minute. If you're on a similar shift it's not so bad, but there has to be a minimum of twelve hours between shifts. Therefore, whilst a person who should be doing an early turn that day can swap their shift for a late turn, the driver on the late turn couldn't swap their shift for the early turn, unless they were rest day the day before. Otherwise, in an extreme example, a driver finishing at 01:30 in the morning on a late turn could then book on at 04:55 the same morning for an early turn. Drivers are not allowed to do overtime (the unions won't allow it) unless this is unavoidable due to getting back late when finishing their duty, or it is additional overtime (normally a few minutes) on certain duties as agreed by the unions. As a consequence, After they have finished their own duty, a driver can't then "do a rounder" of another duty because that driver will be in late. Roger |
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*From:* Roland Perry
*Date:* Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:03:58 +0100 In message , at 06:17:31 on Fri, 22 Jul 2011, remarked: drivers are paid for a 35 hour week, but work 36 hours Is that spread over s 5-day week, or four? -- Roland Perry It's spread over five days. As long as it conforms to certain criteria as agreed between management and unions, such as the maximum amount of hours on a train without a break etc., the length of a duty can vary between around 4 hours 16 mins to 8 hours. Spare turns are normally 8 hour turns to maximise the work that a spare driver can do. These hours doesn't include a 30 minute unpaid meal relief so, for example, a driver working an eight hour shift, would be booked on for 8½ hours. This is the same for M-F, Saturday and Sunday duties. These varying hours are more for management's benefits than for the benefit of the staff as it means that they can use the drivers more productively and there is less wasted "off-train" time. Drivers working a night shift on passenger trains will normally work a seven day week then have four ret days the following week As a driver, it's nice to have a short turn, these days many staff often have to travel a long way to and from work and so, if you're travelling 1 - 1½ hours each day, you might as well do a full shift. That's why some drivers would prefer to work a longer four day week of an average 9 hour day. They would still work the same amount of hours a week, but would have to travel for one day less. Generally, the total weekly hours can vary above or below 36 hours, but should average out at 36 hours over the course of a month. Roger |
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"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 18:09:34 on Fri, 22 Jul 2011, tim.... remarked: All very interesting stuff. Thanks. Must be quite a problem for drivers to see a GP if it's one of those surgeries where you can't get an appointment (even for non-urgent things) until you try calling the reception at 8am the same day. So they go to the doctors on a day when they are on lates. It may not be possible to wait until a day when they are both "on lates", and calling at 8am manages to get you an appointment. I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who got into trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the last minute). The simple solution to this is to NOT get yourself into that position. Very easy to say, but I'm sure there are people whose jobs are even less flexible. I know that there are, but this doesn't negate the point that when you are agreeing to buy a house dictating the (rules for the)completion day is well within your control. Accepting a last minute variable day is a concession that someone in flexible employment can make, but someone on fixed shifts cannot. Asking your employer (rather than the vendor) to be flexible in this instance is unreasonable IMHO If your work commitments are such that you have to have a completion on a particular set of dates then you "offer" on that basis. In the worst case, why does someone actually need to be present when a removals firm is moving you? Yes, you do. There's more involved than just shifting a bit of furniture. You still don't actually need to be there. tim |
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In message , at 14:48:04 on Sat, 23 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked: I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who into trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the last minute). The simple solution to this is to NOT get yourself into that position. Very easy to say, but I'm sure there are people whose jobs are even less flexible. I know that there are, but this doesn't negate the point that when you are agreeing to buy a house dictating the (rules for the)completion day is well within your control. Sometimes the chain will break if you can't complete when others want you to, despite it being very inconvenient for yourself. Accepting a last minute variable day is a concession that someone in flexible employment can make, but someone on fixed shifts cannot. It's not a "variable day", but a "fixed day at short notice". Asking your employer (rather than the vendor) to be flexible in this instance is unreasonable IMHO Yes, we already know you are the employer from hell. If your work commitments are such that you have to have a completion on a particular set of dates then you "offer" on that basis. In the worst case, why does someone actually need to be present when a removals firm is moving you? Yes, you do. There's more involved than just shifting a bit of furniture. You still don't actually need to be there. You or a very trusted representative need to be. Some people don't have ready access to such representatives. -- Roland Perry |
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"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:48:04 on Sat, 23 Jul 2011, tim.... remarked: I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who into trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the last minute). The simple solution to this is to NOT get yourself into that position. Very easy to say, but I'm sure there are people whose jobs are even less flexible. I know that there are, but this doesn't negate the point that when you are agreeing to buy a house dictating the (rules for the)completion day is well within your control. Sometimes the chain will break if you can't complete when others want you to, despite it being very inconvenient for yourself. Accepting a last minute variable day is a concession that someone in flexible employment can make, but someone on fixed shifts cannot. It's not a "variable day", but a "fixed day at short notice". Asking your employer (rather than the vendor) to be flexible in this instance is unreasonable IMHO Yes, we already know you are the employer from hell. No you don't, because I am not an employer :-) But even if I was, I am the sort of person who would be reasonable as possible about such issues, but I still wouldn't consider the insistence on agreeing a flexible completion date as a valid reason for disrupting a, months in advance, pre-planned shift system. I would consider that it was the employee who had been unreasonable, not me. If your work commitments are such that you have to have a completion on a particular set of dates then you "offer" on that basis. In the worst case, why does someone actually need to be present when a removals firm is moving you? Yes, you do. There's more involved than just shifting a bit of furniture. You still don't actually need to be there. You or a very trusted representative need to be. Some people don't have ready access to such representatives. But most will : tim |
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In message , at 13:51:29 on Sun, 24 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked: Asking your employer (rather than the vendor) to be flexible in this instance is unreasonable IMHO Yes, we already know you are the employer from hell. No you don't, because I am not an employer :-) But even if I was, I am the sort of person who would be reasonable as possible about such issues, but I still wouldn't consider the insistence on agreeing a flexible completion date as a valid reason for disrupting a, months in advance, pre-planned shift system. It's not a flexible date, but one that's firmly set at short notice. With rentals it's even more common to have only a couple of week's notice. I would consider that it was the employee who had been unreasonable, not me. Yes, we know you think that. Yes, you do. There's more involved than just shifting a bit of furniture. You still don't actually need to be there. You or a very trusted representative need to be. Some people don't have ready access to such representatives. But most will : I doubt it. -- Roland Perry |
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"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 13:51:29 on Sun, 24 Jul 2011, tim.... remarked: Asking your employer (rather than the vendor) to be flexible in this instance is unreasonable IMHO Yes, we already know you are the employer from hell. No you don't, because I am not an employer :-) But even if I was, I am the sort of person who would be reasonable as possible about such issues, but I still wouldn't consider the insistence on agreeing a flexible completion date as a valid reason for disrupting a, months in advance, pre-planned shift system. It's not a flexible date, but one that's firmly set at short notice. It's flexible in the sense that you have willingly said to the vendor "I can do any day" rather than "It must be May 10, 11, 15, 16, 22, 23 etc". With rentals it's even more common to have only a couple of week's notice. How come? You get 2 months notice for having to leave. Even if you push it to a court order the court will give you some flexibility for the day to move. |
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In message , at 15:08:02 on Sun, 24 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked: Yes, we already know you are the employer from hell. No you don't, because I am not an employer :-) But even if I was, I am the sort of person who would be reasonable as possible about such issues, but I still wouldn't consider the insistence on agreeing a flexible completion date as a valid reason for disrupting a, months in advance, pre-planned shift system. It's not a flexible date, but one that's firmly set at short notice. It's flexible in the sense that you have willingly said to the vendor "I can do any day" rather than "It must be May 10, 11, 15, 16, 22, 23 etc". No, it isn't like that. Picking a date is a compromise between what can be quite a few people, as well as the availability of third parties (you can't realistically complete between Xmas and New Year for example, because not only are most solicitors closed, apparently none of the lenders are open so you can't get the funds. With rentals it's even more common to have only a couple of week's notice. How come? You get 2 months notice for having to leave. Even if you push it to a court order the court will give you some flexibility for the day to move. You have to find somewhere to move to (which is clearly much easier if the last landlord gives you a reference along the lines of "I had to go to court to evict him"). Finding somewhere isn't always easy, and can result in quite a small window during which you have to move. As part of the "employer unreasonableness" issue is whether the day in question is taken as paid, paid leave, or unpaid leave, money can be an issue and not everyone can afford to have a big overlap where you are paying two sets of rent at once. And if you aren't there the day the landlord's agents do the walk-round you are giving them a blank cheque to dock your deposit. -- Roland Perry |
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"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 15:08:02 on Sun, 24 Jul 2011, tim.... remarked: Yes, we already know you are the employer from hell. No you don't, because I am not an employer :-) But even if I was, I am the sort of person who would be reasonable as possible about such issues, but I still wouldn't consider the insistence on agreeing a flexible completion date as a valid reason for disrupting a, months in advance, pre-planned shift system. It's not a flexible date, but one that's firmly set at short notice. It's flexible in the sense that you have willingly said to the vendor "I can do any day" rather than "It must be May 10, 11, 15, 16, 22, 23 etc". No, it isn't like that. Picking a date is a compromise between what can be quite a few people, as well as the availability of third parties (you can't realistically complete between Xmas and New Year for example, because not only are most solicitors closed, apparently none of the lenders are open so you can't get the funds. With rentals it's even more common to have only a couple of week's notice. How come? You get 2 months notice for having to leave. Even if you push it to a court order the court will give you some flexibility for the day to move. You have to find somewhere to move to (which is clearly much easier if the last landlord gives you a reference along the lines of "I had to go to court to evict him"). Finding somewhere isn't always easy, and can result in quite a small window during which you have to move. As part of the "employer unreasonableness" issue is whether the day in question is taken as paid, paid leave, or unpaid leave, money can be an issue and not everyone can afford to have a big overlap where you are paying two sets of rent at once. We're specifically talking about 45K pa employees here tim |
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In message , at 08:52:57 on Mon, 25 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked: You have to find somewhere to move to (which is clearly much easier if the last landlord gives you a reference along the lines of "I had to go to court to evict him"). Finding somewhere isn't always easy, and can result in quite a small window during which you have to move. As part of the "employer unreasonableness" issue is whether the day in question is taken as paid, paid leave, or unpaid leave, money can be an issue and not everyone can afford to have a big overlap where you are paying two sets of rent at once. We're specifically talking about 45K pa employees here Are you? Oddly enough, the example I had in mind was someone on around that salary too. I'm not sure what you think changes if the salary differs a lot from that. -- Roland Perry |
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On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 06:09:34PM +0100, tim.... wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote: All very interesting stuff. Thanks. Must be quite a problem for drivers to see a GP if it's one of those surgeries where you can't get an appointment (even for non-urgent things) until you try calling the reception at 8am the same day. So they go to the doctors on a day when they are on lates. Must be nice to be able to schedule your sickness. It's a trick I have yet to manage. I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who got into trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the last minute). In the worst case, why does someone actually need to be present when a removals firm is moving you? To let them in the front door. To make sure they don't nick stuff. Etc. The lack of flexibility in taking time off is a great reason why tube drivers should be highly paid IMO. -- David Cantrell | even more awesome than a panda-fur coat I remember when computers were frustrating because they did exactly what you told them to. That seems kinda quaint now. -- JD Baldwin, in the Monastery |
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In message , at 11:53:32
on Mon, 25 Jul 2011, David Cantrell remarked: Drivers are not allowed to do overtime (the unions won't allow it) Why do the unions have any say in the matter? If a driver wants to work overtime, and his manager has work for him to do, then it seems crazy to stop them. You seem to be overlooking the "collective" in Collective Bargaining. If the unions have decided that they'd prefer more jobs (which equates to more subs and also an easier sell that every member needs a 'living wage' without overtime), rather than fewer jobs with flexibility via overtime, then everyone gets lumbered with that decision. -- Roland Perry |
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On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 11:42:40 +0100
David Cantrell wrote: I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who got into trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the last minute). In the worst case, why does someone actually need to be present when a removals firm is moving you? To let them in the front door. To make sure they don't nick stuff. Etc. The lack of flexibility in taking time off is a great reason why tube drivers should be highly paid IMO. Many jobs are inflexible about taking time off. That doesn't mean they should all earn a fortune. 45K is an absurb salary for such a low skilled job. And don't anyone tell me how they have to be highly trained technitions for when things go wrong - they just go through a troubleshooting checklist and if that doesn't work they call control and read their paper. A trained chimp could do it. B2003 |
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On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 12:16:23 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: If the unions have decided that they'd prefer more jobs (which equates to more subs and also an easier sell that every member needs a 'living wage' without overtime), rather than fewer jobs with flexibility via overtime, then everyone gets lumbered with that decision. If overtime is available what is stopping someone from doing it? If the union rep doesn't like it surely thats a case of tough ****? B2003 |
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Summer holidays
*Date:* Mon, 25 Jul 2011 11:41:25 +0000 (UTC)
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 11:42:40 +0100 David Cantrell wrote: I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who got into trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the last minute). In the worst case, why does someone actually need to be present when a removals firm is moving you? To let them in the front door. To make sure they don't nick stuff. Etc. The lack of flexibility in taking time off is a great reason why tube drivers should be highly paid IMO. Many jobs are inflexible about taking time off. That doesn't mean they should all earn a fortune. 45K is an absurb salary for such a low skilled job. And don't anyone tell me how they have to be highly trained technitions for when things go wrong - they just go through a troubleshooting checklist and if that doesn't work they call control and read their paper. A trained chimp could do it. B2003 I have taken people who've never touched a train before and, after half an hour, have got them driving reasonably well. A ten year old could no doubt drive the train in the same amount of time. It might take an untrained chimp about one hour though. It's a "piece of ****", as they say! However, and I don't expect you to understand this, the untrained chimp has to know rather a lot of knowledge before they be classed as trained. This includes: Signal operation (and it is slightly more complicated than red = stop, green = go!), and signalling principles Rolling stock operation, train equipment, dealing with defects. This includes learning all about the equipment, recognising faults, knowing what to do if the train comes to a sudden stop, won't go, doors won't open / close, or the important things like the kettle in the cab doesn't work, or the toaster only browns one side of the bread, and just about anything else you can think off - just in case the chief chimp isn't answering the radio or the radio's defective. Line Knowledge - knowing all there is about the line, where the signals are, the types of signals, what moves can be done, where the substations are, how to take current off, what happens if current comes off. And all sorts of other information such as what to do if / when you a get a one-under, a bomb goes off on your train or the train catches fire. However, I must admit there is less to learn than when I first started, and I'm sure it will get to the point where a chimp can be woken up, given a banana and operate the train remotely from his cage just by pushing a few buttons and watching a TV! Of course, the latest thing is distance learning, a sort of cut down Open University course for a driver's job. Sign up, and you get sent a home learning pack and simulator for the line of your choice. Learn at your leisure, take an online CBT exam and driving test then, if you pass, report for your medical and Drugs and Alcohol test. If you pass that, you're then given the key to the train and off you go. I'm sure you'll agree that's a much better way of doing things than wasting all these months training drivers. That way, if there's any hint of a strike, you can just say - "you're fired" and bring on the next lot of instant drivers! Roger |
Summer holidays
*From:* David Cantrell
*Date:* Mon, 25 Jul 2011 11:53:32 +0100 On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 02:51:02PM -0500, wrote: Drivers are not allowed to do overtime (the unions won't allow it) Why do the unions have any say in the matter? If a driver wants to work overtime, and his manager has work for him to do, then it seems crazy to stop them. -- David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity -- Hanlon's Razor Stupidity maintained long enough is a form of malice -- Richard Bos's corollary I'm not quite sure of the reasoning behind this on the Underground - overtime is worked on the stations. Rest day working is also worked on the mainline (I don't know if it's agreed with all train companies). It isn't because of the amount of actual time worked. When I joined, you worked a five day 40-hour week, Monday to Saturday. Sundays (one on, one off, giving an average 44 hour week) were always classed as overtime. Although they were rostered and you could say in advance "I don't want to work Sunday", very few people did. However, you couldn't work any of your booked rest days, although this was sometimes done unofficially or during training. The Company Plan was introduced in the early 90s when there were sweeping changes made to the terms and conditions and everybody had to sign new contracts if they still wanted their job. Apart from going onto salaried status (paid monthly, at a flat rate, instead of hourly at enhanced rates), one of the major changes was the introduction of a five day 40 hour week when Sundays were classed as no different from any other day and the week ran from Sunday to Saturday. It's possible that this was when overtime was tightened up as the only official overtime (Sundays) was no longer relevant. Personally, I'm neutral over the overtime ban Whilst it might be useful to occasionally work a bit of overtime if you need a bit of extra money, it would be too easy to get into the trap of being used to that extra money all the time and so effectively get trapped into having to work the overtime all the time out of need. Of course this applies to any job, however high or low paid. Roger |
Summer holidays
*From:* Roland Perry
*Date:* Mon, 25 Jul 2011 12:16:23 +0100 In message , at 11:53:32 on Mon, 25 Jul 2011, David Cantrell remarked: Drivers are not allowed to do overtime (the unions won't allow it) Why do the unions have any say in the matter? If a driver wants to work overtime, and his manager has work for him to do, then it seems crazy to stop them. You seem to be overlooking the "collective" in Collective Bargaining. If the unions have decided that they'd prefer more jobs (which equates to more subs and also an easier sell that every member needs a 'living wage' without overtime), rather than fewer jobs with flexibility via overtime, then everyone gets lumbered with that decision. -- Roland Perry That always seems to be the union's argument, whenever this has been brought up. Another side to whether overtime (in the form of rest day working) is worked or not is the effect from a company's point of view. It's probably cheaper to pay overtime than recruit extra staff. The cost of more staff being much higher than existing staff working overtime (because of all sorts of overheads such as uniform, nation insurance etc.}. For a company, staff working overtime is probably a more flexible way of covering additional work, temporary vacancies etc. Like staff getting used to more pay, companies get used to their staff working overtime. This can have a bad side, as the FCC work to rule last year(?) proved, with the large amount of trains that were being frequently cancelled due to no staff available. Because it takes so long to train staff up, they can't suddenly say "we'll stop rest day working". They have to allow up to six months for new, additional drivers to be trained up. Roger |
Summer holidays
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Summer holidays
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 08:52:57 on Mon, 25 Jul 2011, tim.... remarked: You have to find somewhere to move to (which is clearly much easier if the last landlord gives you a reference along the lines of "I had to go to court to evict him"). Finding somewhere isn't always easy, and can result in quite a small window during which you have to move. As part of the "employer unreasonableness" issue is whether the day in question is taken as paid, paid leave, or unpaid leave, money can be an issue and not everyone can afford to have a big overlap where you are paying two sets of rent at once. We're specifically talking about 45K pa employees here Are you? Oddly enough, the example I had in mind was someone on around that salary too. I'm not sure what you think changes if the salary differs a lot from that. The loyalty shown to the company. This is a relatively simple skilled job. It commands a high(ish) salary because of the ****ty shift system that is required. Taking the salary and then expecting not to have to conform to the ****ty shift system is TTP IMHO. tim |
Summer holidays
"David Cantrell" wrote in message k... On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 06:09:34PM +0100, tim.... wrote: "Roland Perry" wrote: All very interesting stuff. Thanks. Must be quite a problem for drivers to see a GP if it's one of those surgeries where you can't get an appointment (even for non-urgent things) until you try calling the reception at 8am the same day. So they go to the doctors on a day when they are on lates. Must be nice to be able to schedule your sickness. It's a trick I have yet to manage. Roland is talking about scheduling routine appointments of the sort that you would be expected to make in your own time (he's linking this point with an alternative discussion about doctor's crappy appointments systems that we had elsewhere). If you are sick on the day, you take the day off as any normal person would. I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who got into trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the last minute). In the worst case, why does someone actually need to be present when a removals firm is moving you? To let them in the front door. To make sure they don't nick stuff. Etc. The lack of flexibility in taking time off is a great reason why tube drivers should be highly paid IMO. It's a reason why they ARE I agree. but if they take the carrot they have to accept the stick IMHO. tim |
Summer holidays
In message , at 11:32:19 on Tue, 26 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked: We're specifically talking about 45K pa employees here Are you? Oddly enough, the example I had in mind was someone on around that salary too. I'm not sure what you think changes if the salary differs a lot from that. The loyalty shown to the company. So you are postulating a correlation between salary and loyalty? This is a relatively simple skilled job. It commands a high(ish) salary because of the ****ty shift system that is required. You seem to be overly focussed on one job. I've been speaking much more generally. -- Roland Perry |
Summer holidays
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 11:32:19 on Tue, 26 Jul 2011, tim.... remarked: We're specifically talking about 45K pa employees here Are you? Oddly enough, the example I had in mind was someone on around that salary too. I'm not sure what you think changes if the salary differs a lot from that. The loyalty shown to the company. So you are postulating a correlation between salary and loyalty? if you including skill level/responsibility, yes. This is a relatively simple skilled job. It commands a high(ish) salary because of the ****ty shift system that is required. You seem to be overly focussed on one job. I've been speaking much more generally. Why? The answer that I replied to was specifically about the shift of LU train drivers. How is it the slightest bit reasonable to assume that I was talking about all workers? tim |
Summer holidays
In message , at 13:01:30 on Tue, 26 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked: So you are postulating a correlation between salary and loyalty? if you including skill level/responsibility, yes. Then you are doomed to be disappointed. Assuming you mean there's a positive correlation, I've know highly paid senior managers to be some of the least loyal, and low paid foot soldiers the most. This is a relatively simple skilled job. It commands a high(ish) salary because of the ****ty shift system that is required. You seem to be overly focussed on one job. I've been speaking much more generally. Why? The answer that I replied to was specifically about the shift of LU train drivers. How is it the slightest bit reasonable to assume that I was talking about all workers? I have no reason to believe the strictures of moving house are limited only to tube train drivers. -- Roland Perry |
Summer holidays
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 13:01:30 on Tue, 26 Jul 2011, tim.... remarked: So you are postulating a correlation between salary and loyalty? if you including skill level/responsibility, yes. Then you are doomed to be disappointed. I not saying I'm expecting staff to give it. I'm saying that it's reasonable for the employer to expect it. Assuming you mean there's a positive correlation, I've know highly paid senior managers to be some of the least loyal, and low paid foot soldiers the most. This is a relatively simple skilled job. It commands a high(ish) salary because of the ****ty shift system that is required. You seem to be overly focussed on one job. I've been speaking much more generally. Why? The answer that I replied to was specifically about the shift of LU train drivers. How is it the slightest bit reasonable to assume that I was talking about all workers? I have no reason to believe the strictures of moving house are limited only to tube train drivers. Obviously not, tim |
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