Do a lot of underground operations staff go on holiday during the
summer, with station manning requirements reduced to allow this, or are
they required to spread their holidays out evenly through the year?

I'm not sure that summer makes that much difference. Whilst there are less
workers, there are more tourists about and there are also more children
(on school holidays) travelling around, although perhaps not as many to
make up for the drop in workers.


A brief leave explanation, as the standard always gets it wrong!
Drivers have eight weeks off a year allocated to them. When there are
strikes etc. in the offing, LU like to quote this as "8 weeks holidays" to
try to make it look good. In fact, this is made up of normal holidays,
days off in lieu of working bank holidays, Banked Rest Days (drivers are
paid for a 35 hour week, but work 36 hours, the additional hour per week
works out at 6 BRDs a year), and any odd days they might be owed for any
reason. The actual amount of time due may vary slightly either way and is
adjusted locally.

Because of the large amount of drivers at a depot, this eight weeks is
spread over four two week periods (Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter), and
is spread out over a rota basis over 48 weeks with drivers rostered to
cover the periods of leave as part of their rostered duties. The odd four
weeks left of the year is used to cover any drivers outstanding odd days,
leave previously owed etc.

I don't know about the station side, but from what I've understood in the
past, there is more flexibility in when station staff take their leave
because there is not enough of them in a group to take up a whole year
between them. Station staff get the same leave entitlement as drivers, but
may work more unpaid hours and thus get more BRDs.

I'm not sure if station staff leave is allocated to specific rostered
leave periods when staff must take their leave, or if staff generally just
apply in advance for time off, like managers do. Obviously when leave is
taken would be restricted to when cover is available, but I assume that,
like most people, more staff would like to take some of their leave in the
summer when the schools are on holiday and the weather is (possibly!)
better than the winter.

So, the answer is, maybe!

A bit of a lengthy answer, but staff leave etc. is something that is often
misquoted in the press etc.

Roger

*From:* Basil Jet
*Date:* Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:21:47 +0100

Do a lot of underground operations staff go on holiday during the
summer, with station manning requirements reduced to allow this, or
are they required to spread their holidays out evenly through the
year?

On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:17:31 -0500
wrote:
strikes etc. in the offing, LU like to quote this as "8 weeks holidays" to
try to make it look good. In fact, this is made up of normal holidays,
days off in lieu of working bank holidays, Banked Rest Days (drivers are
paid for a 35 hour week, but work 36 hours, the additional hour per week

Gasp! An extra hour a week unpaid, how do they cope?? Do they get
councelling?

Perhaps these poor hard worked drivers should get a job in most offices
where people generally do an extra hour a DAY and some a damn site more.

works out at 6 BRDs a year), and any odd days they might be owed for any
reason. The actual amount of time due may vary slightly either way and is
adjusted locally.

Whatever. They still get a huge holiday allowance.

A bit of a lengthy answer, but staff leave etc. is something that is often
misquoted in the press etc.

I'm sure it would completely change the public opinion of these heroes if
it turned out they actually only get 7 weeks off instead of 8.

/sarcasm

B2003

In message , at 06:17:31
on Fri, 22 Jul 2011, remarked:
Because of the large amount of drivers at a depot, this eight weeks is
spread over four two week periods (Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter), and
is spread out over a rota basis over 48 weeks with drivers rostered to
cover the periods of leave as part of their rostered duties. The odd four
weeks left of the year is used to cover any drivers outstanding odd days,
leave previously owed etc.

I don't know about the station side, but from what I've understood in the
past, there is more flexibility in when station staff take their leave
because there is not enough of them in a group to take up a whole year
between them.

How flexible are the employers when staff want to take unexpected leave.
Not just funerals, but perhaps having to wait in for a delivery or
repair man, when the day that's scheduled is at short notice?
--
Roland Perry

*From:* Roland Perry
*Date:* Fri, 22 Jul 2011 13:08:34 +0100

In message , at
06:17:31 on Fri, 22 Jul 2011, remarked:
Because of the large amount of drivers at a depot, this eight
weeks is
spread over four two week periods (Spring, Summer, Autumn and
Winter), and
is spread out over a rota basis over 48 weeks with drivers
rostered to
cover the periods of leave as part of their rostered duties. The
odd four
weeks left of the year is used to cover any drivers outstanding
odd days,
leave previously owed etc.

I don't know about the station side, but from what I've understood
in the
past, there is more flexibility in when station staff take their
leave
because there is not enough of them in a group to take up a whole
year
between them.

How flexible are the employers when staff want to take unexpected
leave. Not just funerals, but perhaps having to wait in for a
delivery or repair man, when the day that's scheduled is at short
notice?
--
Roland Perry


Again, a long post to try and give some background.

The short answer is that on the train side, there's virtually no
flexibility, and that's not the fault of the (local) managers. Over the
years, the amount of pool drivers at depots has been cut.

Pool drivers are literally a pool of a few drivers at a depot who are over
and above the roster and they would normally be used to cover such things
as known sickness, some additional training for existing drivers (the
annual training refresher that drivers get is built in to the roster, so
that isn't a problem), Drivers that are being released so they can train
others, and all sorts of other reasons.


There are also Spare duties built into the roster.
An example of this is at one depot, there are 135 duties booking on on a
week day. Of these, 22 are spare duties and 113 are running (driving
duties). The idea of spare duties is to avoid trains being cancelled.
22 spares might seem a lot, but they can be used for all sorts of things,
including:

Changing over a defective train so that the driver bringing in the
defective train has a good one to take back and the train isn't cancelled
on the next trip,

Taking a train that may otherwise be cancelled because the service is
running late and the relieving driver may still be on their train
somewhere else.

Relieving a driver in various circumstances such as when the driver has a
SPAD, a one-under, is assaulted, has an accident on duty, or the driver
becomes ill on the train.

Relieving a driver that needs to be interviewed for whatever reason, or
for a disciplinary interview (aka Bollocking!) etc.

Starting off a duty where the driver hasn't booked on yet (is late)
Doing part (or all) of a duty where the driver is known to be not booking
on, either from a phone call that has been received that day or the driver
is known to be sick.

The list is really endless.

A driver can be driving their train within 7 minutes of booking on.
If the driver hasn't turned up in time, then a spare driver has to be put
on the train.

Because of the low number of pool drivers, there may be known uncovered
duties that pool drivers would normally cover. These will be shown as no
driver on the daily booking-on sheet and as that is using a spare up
straight away. There can be times when, for whatever reason, there are
several uncovered duties on the sheet. Straight away, the depot manager
knows that he's "in the shift for coverage" that day!


As a consequence of everything being so tight, a driver requesting time
out "or special leave" as it's known) may be refused. This is the same for
whether the special leave is at the beginning or end of the duty, or for a
day or more. If it's for a day in advance and cover is available, it might
be possible for that person to arrange to take a day or more of their
leave at that time. In which case, that time off would be shown as leave
and he would be paid as normal and it wouldn't go against them. This is
normally the case if more than the allowed time off for funerals is
required.

One of the few exceptions for not granting special leave would be a
funeral. A driver phoning in to say that they have to wait in because
somebody is late turing up, a plumber etc. is late finishing, they have to
pick up their children from school etc. will normally be given short
shrift and told to "be in on time or you'll be booked" because if they're
not in on time, it may be that their train (or another train later because
a spare is already being used) is cancelled.

Of course, it might be that the driver who is not granted the time off
takes it off anyway. Either way the train driving still has to be covered.


It may be that a genuine driver (as opposed to the known ****-takers) will
be "let off" by the manager when they eventually book on if no trains have
been cancelled as a consequence, but it doesn't happen very often.

These days, all items of sickness and absence for whatever reason and
lateness (especially when a train is cancelled) are booked as items
against that person. When being disciplined, the list of items is brought
up and looked at. Some items, such as a funeral (a copy of the death
certificate may be requested) may not be counted. Occasionally a sickness
may not be counted, but most are, even with a doctors certificate. There
is no guarantee that a hospital stay (with hospital certificate) would not
be counted. Even if some items are discounted, there is always the
holistic report where discounted items could be looked at and, if there
was a pattern, a driver could still face a review and possibly
disciplinary action.

There are very strict limits as to how many items you can have within a
certain short timescale, and it is very easy to get on the slippery slope
to a potential sacking


I assume the same process applies to the station side, however there is
the potential for there to be a bit more flexibility for being late as no
trains are cancelled. As long as the station doesn't have to close, either
because there will still be more than the minimum number of staff, or
because another member of staff in the same grade is willing to do
overtime until the person comes in. It doesn't mean that any items won't
get counted, though.

Roger

In message , at 09:02:41
on Fri, 22 Jul 2011, remarked:
One of the few exceptions for not granting special leave would be a
funeral. A driver phoning in to say that they have to wait in because
somebody is late turing up, a plumber etc. is late finishing, they have to
pick up their children from school etc. will normally be given short
shrift and told to "be in on time or you'll be booked"

All very interesting stuff. Thanks. Must be quite a problem for drivers
to see a GP if it's one of those surgeries where you can't get an
appointment (even for non-urgent things) until you try calling the
reception at 8am the same day.

I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who got
into trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house
(one of those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until
the last minute). The amount of leeway in such things does seem to vary
a lot from one industry to another.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 06:17:31 on
Fri, 22 Jul 2011, remarked:
Because of the large amount of drivers at a depot, this eight weeks is
spread over four two week periods (Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter), and
is spread out over a rota basis over 48 weeks with drivers rostered to
cover the periods of leave as part of their rostered duties. The odd four
weeks left of the year is used to cover any drivers outstanding odd days,
leave previously owed etc.

I don't know about the station side, but from what I've understood in the
past, there is more flexibility in when station staff take their leave
because there is not enough of them in a group to take up a whole year
between them.

How flexible are the employers when staff want to take unexpected leave.
Not just funerals, but perhaps having to wait in for a delivery or repair
man, when the day that's scheduled is at short notice?

The funeral is obviously something that they can't control, but assuming
that staff often get their "normal" days off during the week expecting not
to arrange deliveries/doctors appointments etc on those days is dammed
unreasonable.

tim

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 09:02:41 on
Fri, 22 Jul 2011, remarked:
One of the few exceptions for not granting special leave would be a
funeral. A driver phoning in to say that they have to wait in because
somebody is late turing up, a plumber etc. is late finishing, they have to
pick up their children from school etc. will normally be given short
shrift and told to "be in on time or you'll be booked"

All very interesting stuff. Thanks. Must be quite a problem for drivers to
see a GP if it's one of those surgeries where you can't get an appointment
(even for non-urgent things) until you try calling the reception at 8am
the same day.

So they go to the doctors on a day when they are on lates.

I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who got into
trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of
those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the last
minute).

The simple solution to this is to NOT get yourself into that position.

If your work commitments are such that you have to have a completion on a
particular set of dates then you "offer" on that basis.

In the worst case, why does someone actually need to be present when a
removals firm is moving you?

In message , at 18:09:34 on Fri, 22 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked:
All very interesting stuff. Thanks. Must be quite a problem for drivers to
see a GP if it's one of those surgeries where you can't get an appointment
(even for non-urgent things) until you try calling the reception at 8am
the same day.

So they go to the doctors on a day when they are on lates.

It may not be possible to wait until a day when they are both "on
lates", and calling at 8am manages to get you an appointment.

I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who got into
trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of
those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the last
minute).

The simple solution to this is to NOT get yourself into that position.

Very easy to say, but I'm sure there are people whose jobs are even less
flexible.

If your work commitments are such that you have to have a completion on a
particular set of dates then you "offer" on that basis.

In the worst case, why does someone actually need to be present when a
removals firm is moving you?

Yes, you do. There's more involved than just shifting a bit of
furniture.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 18:04:41 on Fri, 22 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked:
How flexible are the employers when staff want to take unexpected leave.
Not just funerals, but perhaps having to wait in for a delivery or repair
man, when the day that's scheduled is at short notice?

The funeral is obviously something that they can't control, but assuming
that staff often get their "normal" days off during the week expecting not
to arrange deliveries/doctors appointments etc on those days is dammed
unreasonable.

Thanks for you opinion, which is useful because I'm trying to collect a
range of views (and not just from here).
--
Roland Perry