On 21/08/2011 13:14, Ken wrote:

The major rail station is east Croydon bus the bus station is at West
Croydon. There is a bus terminal, of sorts, outside East Croydon station

As in the bus station?

bus the 726 didn't use it. Instead, it stopped in Dingwall Road. If you
know Croydon, it's not difficult to find, but for those in unfamiliar
surroundings, it was very confusing.

I can't help thinking the market for people who don't know Croydon but
want to go there from Bromley at 6 in the morning must be somewhat limited.

There are very few places where buses are easy to use if you don't know
the area and don't check up where to go - at least London has lots of
maps and signs to help.

Moreover, I wouldn't call Croydon
the safest of places and an ordinary person might feel rather vulnerable
waiting about in Dingwall Rd.

If they had spent their entire life on one of those remote islands where
no-one bothers putting doors on their hovels, maybe. But if they have
been in any UK city centre in recent years it's OK - it's not even as if
there are any pubs round there. I've been there late at night plenty of
times (until Boris Ate My Bus), and not seen any trouble; it's right the
other side of the town centre from where people spend their time
incinerating furniture shops.

(BTW, the first time I went to Bromley I stepped out the station into a
BNP rally!)

The frustrated passenger would stand
outside East Croydon Station watching an empty 726 go roaring past.

There was an issue with signage, but that got fixed. And it wouldn't
affect arriving passengers.

Furthermore, they didn't, and don't today, haven't any information
concerning the whereabouts of buses at East Croydon. They have that
information for the trams, and for the buses at many other locations,
but not there. it makes it difficult for the passenger to make an
informed choice between tram or bus.

I'm sure there are maps on the west-bound bus stops on the bridge, at
least. A sighted person would have to try pretty hard to not find the trams.

So assuming that the passenger could read the timetable through the
dirty timetable pane, if they arrived at 12:15 for a bus due at 12:00,
they would have no way of knowing whether they had missed it, or whether
it was running late and would appear any moment.

Just like almost every other bus stop in the world. But it's London, so
if they have missed it by 15 min they probably don't have long to wait
for another one (no-one is going to be getting the 969 by accident).

That enabled them to kill a bus service whilst claiming "Your services
are improving".

It did improve west of Croydon - doubled in frequency, chopped some
stops.

You comments about other places are not germane to the issue.

My original point was that if they were getting some extra trams it
would be useful to extend the service. I'd be willing to put up with a
bit of overcrowding in the middle of the day.

Perhaps they should relieve overcrowding during the day, and then
bring back night services to places which have lost them altogether....

They should at least start the tram service from the time the replaced
bus service started, to give some honesty to the statement that services
are improving.

What I would really have liked to see was a train running from Orpington
via Birkbeck and Norwood Junction. Don't tell me, there is 27 chains of
missing rail.

Tram-train would need more than just some new off-the-shelf trams.

I did Wimbledon to West Croydon today (just because it was free). It was
full to Ampere Way, then full and standing to Croydon.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

In article , Arthur
Figgis writes
On 21/08/2011 13:14, Ken wrote:

The major rail station is east Croydon bus the bus station is at West
Croydon. There is a bus terminal, of sorts, outside East Croydon station

As in the bus station?

There is a set of bus stops. It is not exactly a station in the sense
that there is at West Croydon.

bus the 726 didn't use it. Instead, it stopped in Dingwall Road. If you
know Croydon, it's not difficult to find, but for those in unfamiliar
surroundings, it was very confusing.

I can't help thinking the market for people who don't know Croydon but
want to go there from Bromley at 6 in the morning must be somewhat
limited.

I'm not sure whether you've mis understood something, as you've put that
opinion below my comment about looking for the 726 stop, which a person
travelling from Bromley would not be doing. To try to clarify:

Typically, a journey has an outward component and an inward component.
Imagine a person from Bromley, Sidcup, Petts Wood or wherever travelling
to Croydon for an onward destination to Gatwick, Brighton, Worthing etc.
It is not part of my argument that the market is large, (though actually
the trains can often be quite full) but rather I would argue that we
travel to odd places at unsocial times from time to time, and a public
transport has to address that requirement, otherwise people give up and
get cars. In other words a public transport system means that some buses
will run empty, or almost empty.

It is the return journey where the person starts looking for the bus
stop and can't find it. This could be at any time of the day. A person
may be tempted to think it must stop somewhere and just make a run for
it when they see the bus coming. It wouldn't occur to them to think that
the bus doesn't stop there at all.


There are very few places where buses are easy to use if you don't know
the area and don't check up where to go - at least London has lots of
maps and signs to help.

Moreover, I wouldn't call Croydon
the safest of places and an ordinary person might feel rather vulnerable
waiting about in Dingwall Rd.

If they had spent their entire life on one of those remote islands
where no-one bothers putting doors on their hovels, maybe. But if they
have been in any UK city centre in recent years it's OK - it's not even
as if there are any pubs round there. I've been there late at night
plenty of times (until Boris Ate My Bus), and not seen any trouble;
it's right the other side of the town centre from where people spend
their time incinerating furniture shops.

(BTW, the first time I went to Bromley I stepped out the station into a
BNP rally!)

It wasn't part of my argument that Bromley is safer than Croydon, or
even that Croydon is unsafe. Merely that I felt people waiting about in
Dingwall Rd might feel a bit vulnerable. You seem to be wanting to
justify the indefensible - the bus passing the bus stand (or what you
call a station) without stopping

The frustrated passenger would stand
outside East Croydon Station watching an empty 726 go roaring past.

There was an issue with signage, but that got fixed. And it wouldn't
affect arriving passengers.

As discussed above, I was thinking of people leaving the station and
looking for the bus.

Furthermore, they didn't, and don't today, haven't any information
concerning the whereabouts of buses at East Croydon. They have that
information for the trams, and for the buses at many other locations,
but not there. it makes it difficult for the passenger to make an
informed choice between tram or bus.

I'm sure there are maps on the west-bound bus stops on the bridge, at
least. A sighted person would have to try pretty hard to not find the
trams.

What I meant was that there is no "bus do in 4 minutes" type of
information, which there is for the trams, and which there is at many
other bus stops of far less importance than East Croydon. I can't
remember what they do at West Croydon.

So assuming that the passenger could read the timetable through the
dirty timetable pane, if they arrived at 12:15 for a bus due at 12:00,
they would have no way of knowing whether they had missed it, or whether
it was running late and would appear any moment.

But it isn't like any other bus stop, because most bus stops do provide
that information.

Just like almost every other bus stop in the world. But it's London, so
if they have missed it by 15 min they probably don't have long to wait
for another one (no-one is going to be getting the 969 by accident).

I have no idea what the 969 is but the 726 was only an hourly service
at certain times of the day.

That enabled them to kill a bus service whilst claiming "Your services
are improving".

It did improve west of Croydon - doubled in frequency, chopped some
stops.


You comments about other places are not germane to the issue.

My original point was that if they were getting some extra trams it
would be useful to extend the service. I'd be willing to put up with a
bit of overcrowding in the middle of the day.

Perhaps they should relieve overcrowding during the day, and then
bring back night services to places which have lost them altogether....

They should at least start the tram service from the time the replaced
bus service started, to give some honesty to the statement that services
are improving.

What I would really have liked to see was a train running from Orpington
via Birkbeck and Norwood Junction. Don't tell me, there is 27 chains of
missing rail.

Tram-train would need more than just some new off-the-shelf trams.

I did Wimbledon to West Croydon today (just because it was free). It
was full to Ampere Way, then full and standing to Croydon.


--
Ken

On 22/08/2011 20:19, Ken wrote:
In article , Arthur
Figgis writes
On 21/08/2011 13:14, Ken wrote:

The major rail station is east Croydon bus the bus station is at West
Croydon. There is a bus terminal, of sorts, outside East Croydon station

As in the bus station?

There is a set of bus stops. It is not exactly a station in the sense
that there is at West Croydon.

No, but it would pass a duck test. West Croydon is palatial compared to
some bus stations.

Of course, were our hypothetical passenger to be arriving from Lewisham
rather than Bromley, his No 75 bus would go sailing past West Croydon
bus station on the wrong side of a nasty dual carriageway. Not even just
round the corner like East Croydon railway station and Dingwall Road -
which the 75 doesn't go to either.

bus the 726 didn't use it. Instead, it stopped in Dingwall Road. If you
know Croydon, it's not difficult to find, but for those in unfamiliar
surroundings, it was very confusing.

I can't help thinking the market for people who don't know Croydon but
want to go there from Bromley at 6 in the morning must be somewhat
limited.

I'm not sure whether you've mis understood something, as you've put that
opinion below my comment about looking for the 726 stop, which a person
travelling from Bromley would not be doing. To try to clarify:

Quite. So I don't see that there is a significant problem which could be
rectified by redeploying trams.

Typically, a journey has an outward component and an inward component.
Imagine a person from Bromley, Sidcup, Petts Wood or wherever travelling
to Croydon for an onward destination to Gatwick, Brighton, Worthing etc.
It is not part of my argument that the market is large, (though actually
the trains can often be quite full) but rather I would argue that we
travel to odd places at unsocial times from time to time, and a public
transport has to address that requirement, otherwise people give up and
get cars. In other words a public transport system means that some buses
will run empty, or almost empty.

And for some journeys cars do make sense.

It is the return journey where the person starts looking for the bus
stop and can't find it. This could be at any time of the day. A person
may be tempted to think it must stop somewhere and just make a run for
it when they see the bus coming. It wouldn't occur to them to think that
the bus doesn't stop there at all.

Such a person is not going to be able to cope with public transport
anyway (other than a taxi). How long might such a person spend at
Bromley South waiting for a train to Gatwick before deciding to
investigate whether that is actually a good idea?

Or maybe they are stuck in Bognor, thinking it doesn't look like
Brighton. Or their brain has exploded while trying to work out which
portion of a train to be in at Haywards Heath.

There are very few places where buses are easy to use if you don't
know the area and don't check up where to go - at least London has
lots of maps and signs to help.

Moreover, I wouldn't call Croydon
the safest of places and an ordinary person might feel rather vulnerable
waiting about in Dingwall Rd.

If they had spent their entire life on one of those remote islands
where no-one bothers putting doors on their hovels, maybe. But if they
have been in any UK city centre in recent years it's OK - it's not
even as if there are any pubs round there. I've been there late at
night plenty of times (until Boris Ate My Bus), and not seen any
trouble; it's right the other side of the town centre from where
people spend their time incinerating furniture shops.

(BTW, the first time I went to Bromley I stepped out the station into
a BNP rally!)

It wasn't part of my argument that Bromley is safer than Croydon, or
even that Croydon is unsafe. Merely that I felt people waiting about in
Dingwall Rd might feel a bit vulnerable. You seem to be wanting to
justify the indefensible - the bus passing the bus stand (or what you
call a station) without stopping

Which bus: the one which doesn't exist because it has been chopped back
and become the X26, or the 119 which apparently doesn't count (and
anyway does use the bus station in one direction, and stops opposite the
station in the other)? And why would this person not get a tram, which
is hard to avoid?

I genuinely don't think the needs of unduly paranoid thick people
travelling to unfamiliar places at unusual times should outweigh the
needs of the masses trying to squeeze onto packed trams (I had to climb
over people's stuff to get off on Sunday). If someone opens an Ikea at
Birkbeck, then maybe we'll need to rethink.

The frustrated passenger would stand
outside East Croydon Station watching an empty 726 go roaring past.

There was an issue with signage, but that got fixed. And it wouldn't
affect arriving passengers.

As discussed above, I was thinking of people leaving the station and
looking for the bus.

Furthermore, they didn't, and don't today, haven't any information
concerning the whereabouts of buses at East Croydon. They have that
information for the trams, and for the buses at many other locations,
but not there. it makes it difficult for the passenger to make an
informed choice between tram or bus.

I'm sure there are maps on the west-bound bus stops on the bridge, at
least. A sighted person would have to try pretty hard to not find the
trams.

What I meant was that there is no "bus do in 4 minutes" type of
information, which there is for the trams, and which there is at many
other bus stops of far less importance than East Croydon. I can't
remember what they do at West Croydon.

Paper timetables and maps. They have at least fixed the spelling of
"Wadden" on one of the signs.

If anything, a next bus display might confuse the unfamiliar user, as
they might think that it had some link to a meaningful concept of
reality (as the tram ones generally do, until things go tits-up).

So assuming that the passenger could read the timetable through the
dirty timetable pane, if they arrived at 12:15 for a bus due at 12:00,
they would have no way of knowing whether they had missed it, or whether
it was running late and would appear any moment.

But it isn't like any other bus stop, because most bus stops do provide
that information.

Not in Croydon (or Sutton) they don't. There is pretty much always a
timetable, often a map, but generally that's it. No whizzo real-time stuff

Just like almost every other bus stop in the world. But it's London,
so if they have missed it by 15 min they probably don't have long to
wait for another one (no-one is going to be getting the 969 by accident).

I have no idea what the 969 is but the 726 was only an hourly service at
certain times of the day.

969 runs twice a week in each direction.

The X26 (which replaced the 726 (west of Croydon)) is now half-hourly.


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK