"allantracy" wrote

The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded to
run on electricity.

Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would that
be?

Battery technology can never be made efficient, so even with nuclear or
other renewable generation of electricity, battery cars can never be made
efficient. One possibility is a means of transmitting electricity direct to
vehicles. The railways have solved this with OHLE or 3rd rail supply. It has
been done with road vehicles (trolleybuses).

The other possibility is an efficient means of storing energy in road
vehicles without reliance on carbon emissions. In principle this can be done
by using electricity from renewables to electrolyse water, using the
hydrogen as the energy store, and regenerating the electricity on board in a
fuel cell.

Peter

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:21:58 +0100, Peter Masson wrote:

"allantracy" wrote

The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded to
run on electricity.

Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would that
be?

Battery technology can never be made efficient,

Define the meaning you are picking for "efficient" in this context..

so even with nuclear or
other renewable generation of electricity, battery cars can never be
made efficient.

See above. What do you mean by this? Cost? Energy density? Charge cycling
efficiency? Lifespan? Charging time?

The other possibility is an efficient means of storing energy in road
vehicles without reliance on carbon emissions. In principle this can be
done by using electricity from renewables to electrolyse water, using
the hydrogen as the energy store, and regenerating the electricity on
board in a fuel cell.

In other words, an energy storage medium with output converted to
electricity..

Last I heard (about a year ago, and from someone involved heavily in
hydrogen cell development), H2 cells and batteries were technologies
advancing at comparable rates, and although he was backing H2 cells, it
was too early to call which would win out.




--
Speaking for myself, and no-one but myself

"Andy Breen" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:21:58 +0100, Peter Masson wrote:

"allantracy" wrote

The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded to
run on electricity.

Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would that
be?

Battery technology can never be made efficient,

Define the meaning you are picking for "efficient" in this context..

so even with nuclear or
other renewable generation of electricity, battery cars can never be
made efficient.

See above. What do you mean by this? Cost? Energy density? Charge cycling
efficiency? Lifespan? Charging time?

charge cycle efficiency. The other issues can in principle be overcome, but
the laws of physics will not let you charge and discharge a battery without
significant energy losses.

Peter

On Sep 17, 7:39*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Andy Breen" wrote in message

...



On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:21:58 +0100, Peter Masson wrote:

"allantracy" wrote

The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded to
run on electricity.

Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would that
be?

Battery technology can never be made efficient,

Define the meaning you are picking for "efficient" in this context..

so even with nuclear or
other renewable generation of electricity, battery cars can never be
made efficient.

See above. What do you mean by this? Cost? Energy density? Charge cycling
efficiency? Lifespan? Charging time?

charge cycle efficiency. The other issues can in principle be overcome, but
the laws of physics will not let you charge and discharge a battery without
significant energy losses.


Are there not also weight, and size issues with batteries. Gasoline/
petrolium is fairly light and very efficient. A trunk full of
batteries is heavy, even if we are talking about the recent battery
developments.

There is clearly something to be said for Electric/trolley buses.
They are still very much in use in Boston, MA and San Francisco, CA.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 07:44:04 -0700 (PDT), 77002
wrote:

On Sep 17, 7:39*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Andy Breen" wrote in message

...



On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:21:58 +0100, Peter Masson wrote:

"allantracy" wrote

The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded to
run on electricity.

Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would that
be?

Battery technology can never be made efficient,

Define the meaning you are picking for "efficient" in this context..

so even with nuclear or
other renewable generation of electricity, battery cars can never be
made efficient.

See above. What do you mean by this? Cost? Energy density? Charge cycling
efficiency? Lifespan? Charging time?

charge cycle efficiency. The other issues can in principle be overcome, but
the laws of physics will not let you charge and discharge a battery without
significant energy losses.


Are there not also weight, and size issues with batteries. Gasoline/
petrolium is fairly light and very efficient. A trunk full of
batteries is heavy, even if we are talking about the recent battery
developments.

There is clearly something to be said for Electric/trolley buses.
They are still very much in use in Boston, MA and San Francisco, CA.

And Seattle, WA and Metro Vancouver, BC.

In message , at 16:23:49 on
Sat, 17 Sep 2011, Nobody remarked:
There is clearly something to be said for Electric/trolley buses.
They are still very much in use in Boston, MA and San Francisco, CA.

And Seattle, WA and Metro Vancouver, BC.

And much of Eastern Europe.
--
Roland Perry

On 19/09/2011 07:42, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:23:49 on
Sat, 17 Sep 2011, Nobody remarked:
There is clearly something to be said for Electric/trolley buses.
They are still very much in use in Boston, MA and San Francisco, CA.

And Seattle, WA and Metro Vancouver, BC.

And much of Eastern Europe.

And Mendoza in Argentina. May be unique in Southern South America.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 16:23:49
on Sat, 17 Sep 2011, Nobody remarked:
There is clearly something to be said for Electric/trolley buses.
They are still very much in use in Boston, MA and San Francisco, CA.

And Seattle, WA and Metro Vancouver, BC.

And much of Eastern Europe.

Europe generally. Switzerland has quite a few systems. We may be one of the
few European countries without trolleybuses in public use.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:39:20 +0100, Peter Masson wrote:

"Andy Breen" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:21:58 +0100, Peter Masson wrote:

"allantracy" wrote

The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded to
run on electricity.

Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would that
be?

Battery technology can never be made efficient,

Define the meaning you are picking for "efficient" in this context..

so even with nuclear or
other renewable generation of electricity, battery cars can never be
made efficient.

See above. What do you mean by this? Cost? Energy density? Charge
cycling efficiency? Lifespan? Charging time?

charge cycle efficiency. The other issues can in principle be overcome,
but the laws of physics will not let you charge and discharge a battery
without significant energy losses.

More chemistry than physics in a battery, surely. The physical
limitations apply equally to any stored-energy medium (and thus as much
to H2 tankage as power stations as batteries..) - you always get less out
than you put in.

OK, I'll grant you that heat dissipation can be an issue in charging
batteries, but the degree to which it's an issue depends on the type of
battery (thinking back, here, to discussions of heat issues in spacecraft
that couldn't depend on constant solar charging..).

The real question is - is charge cycle efficiency enough of a restrictive
factor. It's not like the alternatives don't have serious issues of their
own. Inductive charging or power supply is lossy, H2 is /really/ good at
leaking out of storage (and producing the stuff and compressing or
liquifying it are all monsterously lossy processes). Given that we (as a
planet) are not short of renewable electricity production potential, but
that most of it is inconveniently placed for current - and even more so
for likely - population concentrations, any "good enough" means of energy
storage is likely to be, well, "good enough".

--
Speaking for myself, and no-one but myself

On 17/09/2011 16:14, Andy Breen wrote:

The real question is - is charge cycle efficiency enough of a restrictive
factor. It's not like the alternatives don't have serious issues of their
own. Inductive charging or power supply is lossy, H2 is /really/ good at
leaking out of storage (and producing the stuff and compressing or
liquifying it are all monsterously lossy processes).

I went on a tour of Diamond a couple of weeks ago, and they were talking
about recent work to zap their small particles at some molecular
structures which Nottingham university is developing to store hydrogen.
My brain was at risk of starting to hurt, but it sounded convincing at
the time.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK