Roland Perry writes:
(I don't think cars without transponders are impaled on spikes).

It would block traffic. Can't have that!

-Miles

--
Is it true that nothing can be known? If so how do we know this? -Woody Allen

Roland Perry wrote:
at 21:08:37 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:

Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the
London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder).

I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.

I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
with photographs of license plates?

Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates

No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.

(I don't think cars without transponders are impaled on spikes).

Hah! I like spikes to protect grade crossings.

There's also some enforcement by foot patrols, although I've never been
sure how widespread they are. That's because you have to pay by the day
once inside, which can't be enforced solely by entry cameras on the
periphery.

Thanks.

Peter Masson wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote:
at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, remarked:

Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way
they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of
transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from
Tower Bridge to Windsor.

Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value
purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is
used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation.

Ah! I wondered about that. Yet, pay-by-cell phone doesn't. Weird.

On 1/20/2012 10:15 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Peter wrote:
"Roland wrote:
at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20 Jan remarked:

Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way
they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of
transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from
Tower Bridge to Windsor.

Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value
purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is
used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation.

Ah! I wondered about that. Yet, pay-by-cell phone doesn't. Weird.

Anyone who accesses their bank account with a cell phone is an idiot who
deserves whatever they get.

Makes a feller want to get into the stealing business!

DAve

In message , at 06:13:10 on Sat, 21 Jan
2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:
I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
with photographs of license plates?

Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates

No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.

We may have a problem with the word "enforce". While it's true that
transponders are the primary means of collecting [US highway] tolls,
supplemented in many cases by a cash-lane, what the cameras are doing is
enforcing a regime where people need a transponder (or to use the
cash-lane).

In the UK we talk about "Law Enforcement" to mean the way in which
people like the police ensure people obey the law by various means, but
primarily by the pursuit of offenders.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 22:24:11 on
Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Peter Masson remarked:
Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the
way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes
of transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and
half a dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies).
Scaling it to numerous authorities operating independent bridges
could be a problem. Imagine a different operator was charging tolls
for every road bridge from Tower Bridge to Windsor.

Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value
purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that
Octopus is used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking
regulation.

And this sort of restriction (while banking law is generally to be
admired) is the cause of a great deal of interoperability issues.

It means that customers have to acquire a new smartcard (electronic
purse or ticket wallet) for every different application. I know that in
theory there are "multi-product" cards, but I don't know of any examples
in the wild, and whether for example trying to load a bus pass onto a
library ticket is going to fall foul of red tape at the bus depot or
library.

It's even worse, because each card generally has a separate and
proprietary system for loading more credit. So my child now has a
"school meals" smartcard, but I have to learn a completely new online
site to go top it up. Cash has some interoperability advantages, after
all.

I wonder if paywave credit cards are the silver bullet that'll resolve
all this, although I'm sure there will still be a separate system to log
into to check your balance for school dinners or days left on your bus
pass, and it's unlikely there will be a "hint"[1] of that available at
the point of use.

[1] eg my bus pass shows how many days are left on the reader display,
an Oyster Card will give a "statement" from a TfL vending machine etc.

--
Roland Perry

In message , at 06:15:30 on Sat, 21 Jan
2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:
Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value
purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is
used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation.

Ah! I wondered about that. Yet, pay-by-cell phone doesn't. Weird.

It may be something to do with cellphone PAYG balances generally being
"non refundable", whereas an Oyster card can be cashed in. As a result
it's more like a "bank balance" than buying "pre-pay vouchers" to spend
at multiple outlets. Gift cards are the same sort of model, you can
redeem them for goods in various places, but the balance isn't really
"cash".
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 22:35:08 on Fri, 20 Jan
2012, John Levine remarked:
They did trials using it to pay at McDonalds' drive-through on Long Island,
but nothing came of it. Since you have to stop to pick up the order anyway,
tapping a credit card doesn't slow the process down much.

McD's in the UK is one of the (relatively few) places where you can use
paywave credit cards. Although I always feel a bit awkward using a
credit card for such small purchases.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 23:55:31 on Fri, 20
Jan 2012, " remarked:
That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge
from Tower Bridge to Windsor.

I wasn't talking about bridges, I was referring to transport.

My model was hypothesising about TfL running all the London Toll
Bridges, or alternative not, and them all being independently run.

I wonder why there isn't one Smart Card for the greater New York area,
similar to what we have here in London.

It sounds like there's "almost" one.
--
Roland Perry

On 21/01/2012 06:15, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Peter wrote:
"Roland wrote:
at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20 Jan remarked:

Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way
they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of
transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from
Tower Bridge to Windsor.

Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value
purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is
used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation.

Ah! I wondered about that. Yet, pay-by-cell phone doesn't. Weird.

They do have pay-by-cell for parking here in London, however.