In message , at 14:39:53 on Fri, 2 Mar
2012, John Levine remarked:
In all cases, the lasr number is a check digit, computed using a
secret formula known only to people who know how to type "Luhn"
into Google.

When I was working in mail order we wanted to be able to checksum card
numbers handwritten on orders, or taken over the phone. We knew there
was a checksum, but the companies refused to tell us (this was decades
before Google, naturally). So we pooled our company AMEX cards on the
table, which of course had quite a lot of digits in common, and had
cracked it in about five minutes. Then, as we suspected, the same
algorithm worked for the rest.

But to return to the original point of this exercise, to get free
train travel, buy a $20 Visa gift card for cash at the supermarket,
and use it on the train. (Do they even have gift cards in the UK? If
so, make it a 20 quid gift card.)

There are lots of gift cards, but to be honest I've never thought they
might be numbered like credit cards. They are branded to particular
stores or chains.

And then there were pre-pay charge cards about five or six years ago,
which think got scrapped because they were too easy for money launderers
to move money internationally with. Their charges were a bit steep as
well.

Until you've bought $20 worth of tickets, it works normally, and the
ticket price is deducted from your balance when the transaction
clears. After that, the bank rejects the transaction, but if the
guard's ticket machine doesn't validate in real time, by the time that
happens you're long gone, and since the card is a bearer instrument,
they have no way to know who to go after. Repeat indefinitely until
the expiration date on the card.

Knowing the BIN ranges of debit cards and gift cards doesn't help
here, since many of them are entirely valid and the train company
will get paid.

The train companies already don't accept Solo and Electron[1], because
they (the train companies) don't have online verification, so they'd
just add those sorts of cards to that list.

[1] Debit cards for accounts with no overdraft facilities and/or
impoverished customers, like students, and under-18's.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

There are lots of gift cards, but to be honest I've never thought they
might be numbered like credit cards. They are branded to particular
stores or chains.

In the US, gift cards have evolved over the past few years. They used to be
issued by the store in question and may or may not have had a proprietary
account number embossed/recorded.

A few years ago, the major card issuers became aware of the market and decided
they wanted a peice of the float/lost card funds and started issuing gift cards
on behalf of the retailers. Now days, they are essentially prepaid debit cards.
Depending on the card, they can be restricted to a particular store, chain of
stores, or used anywhere a credit card is accepted.

In message , at 08:31:52 on
Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Robert Neville remarked:
There are lots of gift cards, but to be honest I've never thought they
might be numbered like credit cards. They are branded to particular
stores or chains.

In the US, gift cards have evolved over the past few years. They used to be
issued by the store in question and may or may not have had a proprietary
account number embossed/recorded.

A few years ago, the major card issuers became aware of the market and decided
they wanted a peice of the float/lost card funds and started issuing gift cards
on behalf of the retailers. Now days, they are essentially prepaid debit cards.
Depending on the card, they can be restricted to a particular store, chain of
stores, or used anywhere a credit card is accepted.

I've just come back from ASDA, which is the UK's branch of Walmart.

They have gift cards, but only mag stripe, and neither visibly numbered
nor containing a chip-and-pin. The latter is going to raise the bar, for
gift cards masquerading as credit/debit cards, in the UK.

The literature said you could load up to £500 on them, and as far as I
could see were only redeemable at ASDA (not including some high risk
concessions). They will also give regular refunds on these gift cards,
if you ask for it rather than cash.

https://cards.asda.com/faqs

I do worry about the "Monkey Bank" brand name, after all if you pay
peanuts...
--
Roland Perry

They have gift cards, but only mag stripe, and neither visibly numbered
nor containing a chip-and-pin. The latter is going to raise the bar, for
gift cards masquerading as credit/debit cards, in the UK.

Perhaps you would enjoy a Travelex Cash Passport, a chip+pin
reloadable prepaid card. They're denominated in EUR or GBP but sold
only in the U.S. The advertising emphasizes the acceptance problems
that non-chip cards can have in Europe.

The card is "free" but the only way to load money into it is
to exchange USD at a dreadful exchange rate.

http://www.travelex.com/US/Products/Cash-Passport/

R's,
John
--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

In message , at 19:35:20 on Fri, 2 Mar
2012, John Levine remarked:
They have gift cards, but only mag stripe, and neither visibly numbered
nor containing a chip-and-pin. The latter is going to raise the bar, for
gift cards masquerading as credit/debit cards, in the UK.

Perhaps you would enjoy a Travelex Cash Passport, a chip+pin
reloadable prepaid card. They're denominated in EUR or GBP but sold
only in the U.S. The advertising emphasizes the acceptance problems
that non-chip cards can have in Europe.

The card is "free" but the only way to load money into it is
to exchange USD at a dreadful exchange rate.

http://www.travelex.com/US/Products/Cash-Passport/

Travelex tried to palm one of those off when I asked for Australian
dollars, but that entirely misses the point for Brits who already have
C&P cards - when travelling abroad I need some *cash*, if an ATM's
accessible I could use an existing card.
--
Roland Perry

On 02-Mar-12 09:09, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:39:53 on Fri, 2 Mar
2012, John Levine remarked:
In all cases, the lasr number is a check digit, computed using a
secret formula known only to people who know how to type "Luhn"
into Google.

When I was working in mail order we wanted to be able to checksum card
numbers handwritten on orders, or taken over the phone. We knew there
was a checksum, but the companies refused to tell us (this was decades
before Google, naturally). So we pooled our company AMEX cards on the
table, which of course had quite a lot of digits in common, and had
cracked it in about five minutes. Then, as we suspected, the same
algorithm worked for the rest.

But to return to the original point of this exercise, to get free
train travel, buy a $20 Visa gift card for cash at the supermarket,
and use it on the train. (Do they even have gift cards in the UK? If
so, make it a 20 quid gift card.)

There are lots of gift cards, but to be honest I've never thought they
might be numbered like credit cards. They are branded to particular
stores or chains.

Store-branded gift cards have been around for a long time; some have
numbers in the 6 range, like a store-branded credit card, but most I've
seen have a barcode (using some store-specific numbering system) rather
than a magstripe.

Gift cards are very, very popular in the US. Stores love them because
they know only a small fraction get redeemed before they expire, and
customers love them because it's simpler and faster than actually
shopping before the numerous holidays that our crazy culture says we're
obligated to give people gifts.

And then there were pre-pay charge cards about five or six years ago,
which think got scrapped because they were too easy for money launderers
to move money internationally with. Their charges were a bit steep as well.

Relatively recently, Visa and AmEx* have introduced gift cards with the
usual logos, magstripe and embossed numbers as on any other US-issued
card from those networks. They are purchased for face value just like a
store-brand gift card. AFAIK, they are not refillable, which would make
them distinct from prepaid cards.

(* I've never noticed MC ones, but they may exist.)

Until you've bought $20 worth of tickets, it works normally, and the
ticket price is deducted from your balance when the transaction
clears. After that, the bank rejects the transaction, but if the
guard's ticket machine doesn't validate in real time, by the time that
happens you're long gone, and since the card is a bearer instrument,
they have no way to know who to go after. Repeat indefinitely until
the expiration date on the card.

Knowing the BIN ranges of debit cards and gift cards doesn't help
here, since many of them are entirely valid and the train company
will get paid.

The train companies already don't accept Solo and Electron[1], because
they (the train companies) don't have online verification, so they'd
just add those sorts of cards to that list.

[1] Debit cards for accounts with no overdraft facilities and/or
impoverished customers, like students, and under-18's.

The same problem could be had with an near-/over-limit credit card,
whereas one of those evil debit cards could have plenty of funds
available. It seems a rather arbitrary distinction.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

In message , at 15:14:16 on Fri, 2 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
The train companies already don't accept Solo and Electron[1], because
they (the train companies) don't have online verification, so they'd
just add those sorts of cards to that list.

[1] Debit cards for accounts with no overdraft facilities and/or
impoverished customers, like students, and under-18's.

The same problem could be had with an near-/over-limit credit card,
whereas one of those evil debit cards could have plenty of funds
available. It seems a rather arbitrary distinction.

The difference is that someone with a credit card has been shown to be
eligible for credit *at all*. All you are doing is allowing a slightly
elastic limit. The debit cards are for people who don't qualify for
credit, either because of their age or their history.
--
Roland Perry

On 03-Mar-12 02:45, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:14:16 on Fri, 2 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
The train companies already don't accept Solo and Electron[1], because
they (the train companies) don't have online verification, so they'd
just add those sorts of cards to that list.

[1] Debit cards for accounts with no overdraft facilities and/or
impoverished customers, like students, and under-18's.

The same problem could be had with an near-/over-limit credit card,
whereas one of those evil debit cards could have plenty of funds
available. It seems a rather arbitrary distinction.

The difference is that someone with a credit card has been shown to be
eligible for credit *at all*. All you are doing is allowing a slightly
elastic limit. The debit cards are for people who don't qualify for
credit, either because of their age or their history.

Pretty much everyone qualifies for a credit card, at least in the US.
Those with poor credit scores get a low limit and high interest rate,
but they can still get a card. If nothing else, they can get a
"secured" credit card. (That type of card may be unique to the US.)

IMHO, in most* cases using credit shows fiscal irresponsibility because
the person is spending money they do not have. If anything, I would be
more likely to trust a _debit_ card user.

(* My personal rule is that one should never be paying for something
after one has finished using it. So, credit only makes sense for things
like education, housing, durable goods, etc. Not for train tickets,
certainly.)

Note that "credit" in the US generally means _revolving_ credit; if you
are referring to "charge" cards that have to be paid in full every
month, that is a different matter. However, charge cards are rare in
the US; even AmEx, the best-known charge card brand, now offers
revolving cards to profit from Americans' irresponsibility.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

In message , at 14:45:38 on Sat, 3 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Pretty much everyone qualifies for a credit card, at least in the US.
Those with poor credit scores get a low limit and high interest rate,
but they can still get a card. If nothing else, they can get a
"secured" credit card. (That type of card may be unique to the US.)

Last time I looked into this, about half the UK's adult population is
regarded as "not credit worthy". Although it's easier to get store
credit, mail order catalogue credit, and "Hire purchase credit" for
durable items, than a credit card for general use.

IMHO, in most* cases using credit shows fiscal irresponsibility because
the person is spending money they do not have. If anything, I would be
more likely to trust a _debit_ card user.

The problem with the (former) holders of Solo/Electron cards is that
often they are minor and therefore pursuing debts against them is
tricky. So they need a bank account and debit card which cannot go
overdrawn. In the UK we don't usually have parents co-signing in such
circumstance, other than perhaps for the rental of a property for a
student. Then there are the folks whose bank won't allow them an
overdraft because they haven't been shown to be fiscally responsible.

As a result, there's an aura of literally "poor man's card" hanging over
all debit cards.

A lot of credit card holders use them in effect as charge cards, as a
substitute for the "monthly credit" that the middle classes used to get
from tradesmen.
--
Roland Perry

On 04/03/2012 08:51, Roland Perry wrote:

The problem with the (former) holders of Solo/Electron cards is that
often they are minor and therefore pursuing debts against them is
tricky. So they need a bank account and debit card which cannot go
overdrawn. In the UK we don't usually have parents co-signing in such
circumstance, other than perhaps for the rental of a property for a
student. Then there are the folks whose bank won't allow them an
overdraft because they haven't been shown to be fiscally responsible.

As a result, there's an aura of literally "poor man's card" hanging over
all debit cards.

Eh? This might be true for Solo/Electron cards (which never seemed to
be accepted by everyone), though I don't have any experience with one.
I do have a couple of debit cards, replacing cheque guarantee and ATM
cards on my current accounts (US:checking accounts)[1], but I've never
noticed any form of poor man's aura about them.

[1] As do tens of millions of other UK current account holders.

A lot of credit card holders use them in effect as charge cards, as a
substitute for the "monthly credit" that the middle classes used to get
from tradesmen.

Before my time but, given the interest rates on credit cards, how else
would you use them if you are in a position to clear the debt on them
each month? (And, although this might be an old-fashioned view, if you're
not in a position to clear the debt you ought not run it up in the first
place.)

Mind you, having your grocer deliver your shopping is back in fashion.



--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk