On 05-Mar-12 13:14, Phil wrote:
Roland Perry writes:

There is no way to know by looking at the card number whether it does.

That's what we *could* do in the UK, by recognising a card as "Solo"
or "Electron". Now that they are branded as "VISA debit", it's
probably not possible to tell, although the cards are still incapable
(in theory) of pushing the bank account into overdraft. What we
haven't established in this conversation yet is how the banks achieve
that Indian Rope Trick if people buy something from (eg) a vending
machine that isn't online.

The machines in shops do know the card type, thats how the cashier
knows to ask if you want cashback or not (the machine prompts them).
They only ask if it is a debit card, not a credit card.

Really?

I deal with several merchants that have self-swipe terminals, and the
terminals ask _me_ if the card is debit or credit. If I press the
"credit" button, even when using my debit card, they do not ask for a
PIN or offer cash back. I've never tried pressing the "debit" button
when using my credit card since I can't remember the PIN.

Note that all (US) debit cards I've seen have the word "DEBIT" on their
face; I don't know if that's required in other countries as well. If
the cashier swipes the card for you, they _may_ be using that
information (and some ask the customer for the card type) to decide
whether to offer cash back.

In most cases, and it should be all, the cashier doesn't handle the
card and will not always see it before you put it into the machine.
Even then it will only be a glance.

Self-swipe is a relatively recent thing in the US. When I worked in
retail (at an electronics store), we had a fair number of cards come
back "PICK UP CARD", usually followed by the card thief running for the
exit. With self-swipe, the retailer can't be counted on to confiscate
the card--but perhaps that's not a major concern now that nearly all
merchants do online authorization.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Stephen Sprunk writes:

Really?

I deal with several merchants that have self-swipe terminals, and the
terminals ask _me_ if the card is debit or credit. If I press the
"credit" button, even when using my debit card, they do not ask for a
PIN or offer cash back. I've never tried pressing the "debit" button
when using my credit card since I can't remember the PIN.

Note that all (US) debit cards I've seen have the word "DEBIT" on their
face; I don't know if that's required in other countries as well. If
the cashier swipes the card for you, they _may_ be using that
information (and some ask the customer for the card type) to decide
whether to offer cash back.
In the UK our cards are mostly chip and pin, the terminal being on the
counter close to the customer. I have never been asked what type of card
I have, they just know and the type is often displayed on the screen
along with amount.

The cashier rarely gets close enough to see the card.

Inside McDonalds they usually walk away to get your food leaving you to
either put you card in the machine and enter your pin, when they come
back the till tells them you have paid, or then you pay cash. At drive
throughs they hand you the terminal, which is on a long telephone type
lead.

Only supermarkets/convinience stores offer cashback, as it reduces the
amount of cash they need to, pay to, bank. This is only on debit cards,
probably all sorts of consumer credit rules about giving cash on a
credit card.

Amex Cards are treated as a credit card by retailers, due mostly to
what it costs them, even though they are, usually, charge cards.

Phil

"Phil" wrote

Only supermarkets/convinience stores offer cashback, as it reduces the
amount of cash they need to, pay to, bank. This is only on debit cards,
probably all sorts of consumer credit rules about giving cash on a
credit card.

For debit cards they are charged per use, so it doesn't cost tem any more if
you use the card to pay for your shopping or if they give you cashback as
well. And, as you say, it saves them the cost of banking the cash. For
credit cards they are charged a percentage, so it would cost them to give
you cashback (and you'd be charged interest from day 1, whereas .uk credit
cards generally give you some sort of intrest-free period on purchases. I
don't think I've ever had to pay credit card interest.

Peter

In message , at 22:43:53 on Mon, 5 Mar 2012,
Phil remarked:
Only supermarkets/convinience stores offer cashback, as it reduces the
amount of cash they need to, pay to, bank. This is only on debit cards,
probably all sorts of consumer credit rules about giving cash on a
credit card.

The problem with giving cash-back on a credit card is that the
cardholder is charged a different rate of interest on cash advances, and
often a fee (and even a zero interest-free period). As a customer, you
wouldn't want that 'penalty' applying to whole of your transaction,
goods as well as cash.

Amex Cards are treated as a credit card by retailers, due mostly to
what it costs them, even though they are, usually, charge cards.

Many of them are credit cards now.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry writes:

In message , at 22:43:53 on Mon, 5 Mar 2012,
Phil remarked:
Only supermarkets/convinience stores offer cashback, as it reduces the
amount of cash they need to, pay to, bank. This is only on debit cards,
probably all sorts of consumer credit rules about giving cash on a
credit card.

The problem with giving cash-back on a credit card is that the
cardholder is charged a different rate of interest on cash advances,
and often a fee (and even a zero interest-free period). As a customer,
you wouldn't want that 'penalty' applying to whole of your
transaction, goods as well as cash.

Amex Cards are treated as a credit card by retailers, due mostly to
what it costs them, even though they are, usually, charge cards.

Many of them are credit cards now.
True, but I would never have one personally. So few places accept them,
they can seriously limit your choice of places to eat when away on
business.

In message , at 23:41:19 on Tue, 6 Mar 2012,
Phil remarked:
Amex Cards are treated as a credit card by retailers, due mostly to
what it costs them, even though they are, usually, charge cards.

Many of them are credit cards now.
True, but I would never have one personally. So few places accept them,
they can seriously limit your choice of places to eat when away on
business.

I've never found it to be a problem. If a meal is expensive enough to
pay by card, I generally find they accept Amex. But I have other cards
too.

Acceptance for travel is very good; there's a bill here (busy month)
with entries for:

obRail: Virgin West Coast and Eurostar
Air: Easyjet, BMIbaby, Emirates, KLM, Flybe, Swiss
Hotels: Geneva, Prague, Brussels, Schiphol.

The full itemisation of flights for the airline ticket purchases is
especially useful. A shame the train companies can't tell them what
tickets I bought too.
--
Roland Perry

On 06-Mar-12 17:41, Phil wrote:
Roland Perry writes:
In message , at 22:43:53 on Mon, 5 Mar 2012,
Phil remarked:
Amex Cards are treated as a credit card by retailers, due mostly to
what it costs them, even though they are, usually, charge cards.

Many of them are credit cards now.

True, but I would never have one personally. So few places accept them,
they can seriously limit your choice of places to eat when away on
business.

Really? I've been doing business travel for nearly 15 years, and I've
_never_ run into a place on any of those trips that didn't accept my
(corporate) AmEx. I've run into several on personal trips, but usually
because I was lodging or dining at lower-end places that I wouldn't
choose when using my expense account.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Really? I've been doing business travel for nearly 15 years, and I've
_never_ run into a place on any of those trips that didn't accept my
(corporate) AmEx.

Do you travel outside the US much? In Europe, everyone takes MC/V,
only higher end places take Amex, like it used to be in the US.

--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

John Levine writes:

Really? I've been doing business travel for nearly 15 years, and I've
_never_ run into a place on any of those trips that didn't accept my
(corporate) AmEx.

Do you travel outside the US much? In Europe, everyone takes MC/V,
only higher end places take Amex, like it used to be in the US.
In the UK, provided you pay the man, then Amex is accepted easily.

If however you want to stay somewhere independantly owned, such as a pub
where there are locals and some craic going on around the bar, rather
than a soul destroying corporate hotel where the bar only sells
fizzy pop, then Amex is a problem.

As Brewers law states, the quality of the beer is inversely proportional
to the price.

Phil

On 09-Mar-12 11:29, John Levine wrote:
Really? I've been doing business travel for nearly 15 years, and I've
_never_ run into a place on any of those trips that didn't accept my
(corporate) AmEx.

Do you travel outside the US much?

A fair bit, but not as much as within the US.

In Europe, everyone takes MC/V, only higher end places take Amex, like
it used to be in the US.

On business trips, I stay/dine at "business class" establishments, which
all seem to take AmEx. I wouldn't consider most of them "higher end",
but that's a matter of perspective.

On personal trips overseas, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the
budget-oriented places I stay/dine don't take AmEx, but I never checked
since I was using a personal V/MC card or cash.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking