On 20-Mar-12 14:51, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:39:59 on Tue, 20 Mar
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Credit cards

Under 18s can normally only get a credit card as an additional
cardholder – for example on a parent’s credit card account. This age
group are not usually granted access to credit themselves because,
under existing legislation, under-18-year-olds do not have the
capacity to enter into a contract, which is a pre-requisite for a
credit product. Some credit card companies, however, will not give
credit cards to under-18s even as additional cardholders.

Charge cards

The same rules apply to charge cards as to credit cards.

Unfortunately that last part is completely wrong (which is an issue
because it's the very thing this thread has been about).

Charge cards are non-revolving credit cards. Normally, "credit card"
refers to the revolving subset.

Solo and Electron (and now VISA Debit) are precisely the debit cards
which *are* given to under 18's in their own right in the UK.

The above doesn't discuss debit cards, only credit and charge cards.

oops. Here's what that page says about debit cards:

Debit cards

These are only issued when linked to a bank or building society account,
usually a current account. As under-18s do not have the capacity to
enter into a contract, banks and building societies do not usually
permit this age group to have an overdraft. Some debit cards, such as
Solo or Visa Electron, require all transactions to be authorised against
money already in the account, which prevents the cardholder going
overdrawn.

How does the merchant know that any given card presented requires
authorization? Is this the floor that folks have mentioned recently
elsewhere in the thread, and is such encoded on the card itself?

For US cards, AFAIK there is no floor encoded on the card; the floor is
set by the card processor depending on the merchant's chargeback
rate--and never exceeds USD 50. The merchant is guaranteed to get at
least that much without having to authorize each transaction--even if
the issuing bank declines it. They will typically authorize any
transaction over that amount, though, which wouldn't work for totally
offline terminals.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:18:00 -0500, Stephen Sprunk
wrote:

On 20-Mar-12 14:51, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:39:59 on Tue, 20 Mar
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Credit cards

Under 18s can normally only get a credit card as an additional
cardholder – for example on a parent’s credit card account. This age
group are not usually granted access to credit themselves because,
under existing legislation, under-18-year-olds do not have the
capacity to enter into a contract, which is a pre-requisite for a
credit product. Some credit card companies, however, will not give
credit cards to under-18s even as additional cardholders.

Charge cards

The same rules apply to charge cards as to credit cards.

Unfortunately that last part is completely wrong (which is an issue
because it's the very thing this thread has been about).

Charge cards are non-revolving credit cards. Normally, "credit card"
refers to the revolving subset.

Solo and Electron (and now VISA Debit) are precisely the debit cards
which *are* given to under 18's in their own right in the UK.

The above doesn't discuss debit cards, only credit and charge cards.

oops. Here's what that page says about debit cards:

Debit cards

These are only issued when linked to a bank or building society account,
usually a current account. As under-18s do not have the capacity to
enter into a contract, banks and building societies do not usually
permit this age group to have an overdraft. Some debit cards, such as
Solo or Visa Electron, require all transactions to be authorised against
money already in the account, which prevents the cardholder going
overdrawn.

How does the merchant know that any given card presented requires
authorization?

According to Wonkypaedia, all Solo and Electron transactions
require(d) authorisation :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solo_%28debit_card%29


Is this the floor that folks have mentioned recently
elsewhere in the thread, and is such encoded on the card itself?

For US cards, AFAIK there is no floor encoded on the card; the floor is
set by the card processor depending on the merchant's chargeback
rate--and never exceeds USD 50. The merchant is guaranteed to get at
least that much without having to authorize each transaction--even if
the issuing bank declines it. They will typically authorize any
transaction over that amount, though, which wouldn't work for totally
offline terminals.

S

In message , at 00:08:15 on
Wed, 21 Mar 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
According to Wonkypaedia, all Solo and Electron transactions
require(d) authorisation :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solo_%28debit_card%29

Which, to get back on topic, is why they weren't accepted on trains and
at most railway stations.

What we haven't yet uncovered is what the equivalent mechanism is for
the under-18's VISA Debit cards which have replaced them.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 06:01:11 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 00:08:15 on
Wed, 21 Mar 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
According to Wonkypaedia, all Solo and Electron transactions
require(d) authorisation :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solo_%28debit_card%29

Which, to get back on topic, is why they weren't accepted on trains and
at most railway stations.

What we haven't yet uncovered is what the equivalent mechanism is for
the under-18's VISA Debit cards which have replaced them.

A quick look round a few bank's websites suggests that if the
transaction is online then the money must be in the account. For
offline it would presumably be something in the card (if there
actually is something) which boils down to the chip, the magnetic
stripe or the card prefix; the first won't work outwith CnPland (and
the banks seem to allow the cards to be used there), the second was
discounted (?) but won't apply if the card does not get swiped and
(without going all the way back through the thread to check) the last
seems to be unproven but there ought to be a few offspring available
for a temporary confiscation of their cards to look at the prefixes. I
do have a sneaking suspicion that to some extent it might work by
making kids believe their cards can't go into the red but without any
certain method of enforcing that while the card is used away from any
communication with the bank.

In message , at 06:43:49 on
Wed, 21 Mar 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
What we haven't yet uncovered is what the equivalent mechanism is for
the under-18's VISA Debit cards which have replaced them.

....

I do have a sneaking suspicion that to some extent it might work by
making kids believe their cards can't go into the red but without any
certain method of enforcing that while the card is used away from any
communication with the bank.

At least one bank *promises* them they can't. That's why we need to
understand the mechanism.
--
Roland Perry

On 21/03/2012 06:56, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 06:43:49 on
Wed, 21 Mar 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:

What we haven't yet uncovered is what the equivalent mechanism is for
the under-18's VISA Debit cards which have replaced them.

...

I do have a sneaking suspicion that to some extent it might work by
making kids believe their cards can't go into the red but without any
certain method of enforcing that while the card is used away from any
communication with the bank.

At least one bank *promises* them they can't. That's why we need to
understand the mechanism.

With such cards, I suggest that the card has a zero floor limit [1], and
will only work with online POS terminals (i.e. those that have to get a
real-time authorisation) - if the terminal is offline, the transaction
will be declined. I'm sure I've read something like that somewhere.
(This would make them functionally similar to Visa Electron cards, so
why the Electron brand has been deprecated in favour of Visa Debit I'm
not entirely clear on.)

-----
[1] Possibly the incorrect terminology.

In message , at 09:31:36 on Wed, 21 Mar
2012, Mizter T remarked:
What we haven't yet uncovered is what the equivalent mechanism is for
the under-18's VISA Debit cards which have replaced them.

I do have a sneaking suspicion that to some extent it might work by
making kids believe their cards can't go into the red but without any
certain method of enforcing that while the card is used away from any
communication with the bank.

At least one bank *promises* them they can't. That's why we need to
understand the mechanism.

With such cards, I suggest that the card has a zero floor limit [1],
and will only work with online POS terminals (i.e. those that have to
get a real-time authorisation) - if the terminal is offline, the
transaction will be declined. I'm sure I've read something like that
somewhere.

I know someone with such a card, and will attempt to persuade them to
make a test purchase.

(This would make them functionally similar to Visa Electron cards, so
why the Electron brand has been deprecated in favour of Visa Debit I'm
not entirely clear on.)

Especially as the Electron branding warns all concerned that the
transaction might not work. Have we really given these under-18's a card
they can't use to buy railway tickets, without warning them in advance?
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 16:18:00 on Tue, 20 Mar
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Debit cards

These are only issued when linked to a bank or building society account,
usually a current account. As under-18s do not have the capacity to
enter into a contract, banks and building societies do not usually
permit this age group to have an overdraft. Some debit cards, such as
Solo or Visa Electron, require all transactions to be authorised against
money already in the account, which prevents the cardholder going
overdrawn.

How does the merchant know that any given card presented requires
authorization? Is this the floor that folks have mentioned recently
elsewhere in the thread, and is such encoded on the card itself?

For US cards, AFAIK there is no floor encoded on the card; the floor is
set by the card processor depending on the merchant's chargeback
rate--and never exceeds USD 50. The merchant is guaranteed to get at
least that much without having to authorize each transaction--even if
the issuing bank declines it. They will typically authorize any
transaction over that amount, though, which wouldn't work for totally
offline terminals.

I believe it's the same in the UK (although my impression is that some
merchant floor limits are well above the equivalent of $50).
--
Roland Perry