On 31-Mar-12 13:10, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 31-Mar-12 10:48, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
+ is the international instruction to dial the routing digits to make
an international call. I believe we all recognize it.

You'd be surprised. Many Americans probably don't know what our int'l
dialing prefix is since they've never used it--and it's not necessary
for int'l calls to other countries in the NANP.

I have a GSM handset.

So your dialing isn't broken by design, as it is with CDMA and iDEN
handsets (and, formerly, AMPS and TDMA).

Every call is dialed with country code, although I can dial 10 digits
domestically. I have to dial a literal + for international dialing
outside NANP.

If you dial "1" rather than "+1" for NANP calls, you are _not_ dialing
with a country code but rather with the long distance access code, which
AFAIK is optional on all NA mobile operators.

This is very confusing for most Merkins because our country code looks
very similar to our long-distance access code--only the presence of the
"+" distinguishes between the two.

Also, on some mobile phones, the int'l prefix is actually "01", which
many people may not distinguish from the "1" that sometimes precedes
NANP calls (including Caller ID, on some carriers).

I wonder why that is, as that would get you operator assistance on a
land line call.

I never asked when I was with that carrier; I just know that using 011
didn't work and Customer Service directed me to use 01.

There are several countries in the NANP that charge ridiculous int'l
toll rates for numbers, hoping that clueless Americans can be enticed
into dialing them, but that's it.

You're talking about that fraud. Calls didn't even terminate there. The
telecom was splitting the long distance settlement fees with those
call centers.

Also, there are new countries in the NANP.

The fraud was in _not terminating_ the calls in the country in question.
The ridiculous int'l tolls themselves were (and still are) legitimate
for calls _actually terminated_ in those countries, though they have
come down in recent years for unrelated reasons.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 31-Mar-12 13:10, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 31-Mar-12 10:48, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

+ is the international instruction to dial the routing digits to make
an international call. I believe we all recognize it.

You'd be surprised. Many Americans probably don't know what our int'l
dialing prefix is since they've never used it--and it's not necessary
for int'l calls to other countries in the NANP.

I have a GSM handset.

So your dialing isn't broken by design, as it is with CDMA and iDEN
handsets (and, formerly, AMPS and TDMA).

You and your over-the-top opinions.

GSM dials calls in international format for the simple reason that it was
designed initially for European use, where there are 30 country codes.
How many country codes are there in the NANP, Steven?

If you dial "1" rather than "+1" for NANP calls, you are _not_ dialing
with a country code but rather with the long distance access code, which
AFAIK is optional on all NA mobile operators.

For the 27th time, Steven: GSM doesn't have a concept of trunk codes,
only international dialing format. My guess is that if the phone sees a
digit used as a trunk code from a land line, it eats it, but one of our
friends from UK with GSM, in which "0" is used as a trunk code from land
lines, would have to confirm that. The phone allows me to place calls
with certain shortcuts so I don't use the + nor "1" when calling within
NANP. Regardless, all calls are actually dialed in international dialing
format no matter what shortcut I might use.

In the area code of my cell phone's number, 7 digit home area code dialing
isn't allowed, so the cell phone is programmed not to use it as a shortcut.

Also, I assume that as all calls are dialed in international format,
the + doesn't actually insert the international dialing prefix in
any county. That would be as pointless as dialing plans that require use
of a trunk code even though both foreign and home area code calls are
dialed with the area code.

Inbound calls are presented with "1".

This is very confusing for most Merkins because our country code looks
very similar to our long-distance access code--only the presence of the
"+" distinguishes between the two.

You're the one who is confused here, as you seem to believe that GSM
has a concept of a trunk code as part of the way it sends the telephone
number. Also, "1" was never an NNTP-wide trunk code even though it was
somewhat common. It really depended on what switch the telephone company
deployed.

There are several countries in the NANP that charge ridiculous int'l
toll rates for numbers, hoping that clueless Americans can be enticed
into dialing them, but that's it.

You're talking about that fraud. Calls didn't even terminate there. The
telecom was splitting the long distance settlement fees with those
call centers.

Also, there are new countries in the NANP.

The fraud was in _not terminating_ the calls in the country in question.
The ridiculous int'l tolls themselves were (and still are) legitimate
for calls _actually terminated_ in those countries, though they have
come down in recent years for unrelated reasons.

No, they were premium rate numbers as well, not just ordinary international
per minute charges. They were attempting to collect a **** load of money.

On 04-Apr-12 13:15, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 31-Mar-12 13:10, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 31-Mar-12 10:48, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
+ is the international instruction to dial the routing digits to make
an international call. I believe we all recognize it.

You'd be surprised. Many Americans probably don't know what our int'l
dialing prefix is since they've never used it--and it's not necessary
for int'l calls to other countries in the NANP.

I have a GSM handset.

So your dialing isn't broken by design, as it is with CDMA and iDEN
handsets (and, formerly, AMPS and TDMA).

You and your over-the-top opinions.

GSM dials calls in international format for the simple reason that it was
designed initially for European use, where there are 30 country codes.
How many country codes are there in the NANP, Steven?

GSM doesn't "dial calls" in any particular format, Abam. Users dial
calls, and the number is interpreted by the switch. All GSM switches
will accept calls in E.164 format (i.e. including the +) _as well as_
one or more local dialing formats.

If you dial "1" rather than "+1" for NANP calls, you are _not_ dialing
with a country code but rather with the long distance access code, which
AFAIK is optional on all NA mobile operators.

For the 27th time, Steven: GSM doesn't have a concept of trunk codes,
only international dialing format.

Wrong. See above.

My guess is that if the phone sees a digit used as a trunk code from a
land line, it eats it,

Wrong.

The phone doesn't _care_ what you dial, much less manipulate it; it
passes the number on as-is to the switch.

Unlike your claims, that is not a "guess".

but one of our friends from UK with GSM, in which "0" is used as a
trunk code from land lines, would have to confirm that.

GSM works the same everywhere. In this respect, other technologies are
exactly the same, except some are unable to represent a "+" in the
dialed number.

The phone allows me to place calls with certain shortcuts so I don't use
the + nor "1" when calling within NANP. Regardless, all calls are
actually dialed in international dialing format no matter what shortcut
I might use.

Wrong. See above.

In the area code of my cell phone's number, 7 digit home area code dialing
isn't allowed, so the cell phone is programmed not to use it as a shortcut.

Wrong. See above.

Also, I assume that as all calls are dialed in international format,
the + doesn't actually insert the international dialing prefix in
any county. That would be as pointless as dialing plans that require use
of a trunk code even though both foreign and home area code calls are
dialed with the area code.

Wrong.

SS7 (the protocol between telco switches) has a bit that indicates if a
phone number is in "national" or "international" format. One of many
tasks of a customer-facing switch is to "normalize" every number dialed
into one of these two formats.

Within the NANP, the "national" format is ten digits; anything else
dialed by users (seven digits, 1+ten digits, etc.) is manipulated by
adding, removing, or changing digits until it conforms. The exact rules
for each switch depend on the defined dial plan, as determined by the
PUC for landlines or the carrier for mobiles.

The exception is if you dial "011..." within the NANP; the switch strips
off the 011 and tags the number as "international" format. The same
happens if you dial "+..." from a GSM phone.

Switches within each national phone network will forward any call to a
number tagged as "international", regardless of the number itself,
toward the nearest int'l gateway. The international network then routes
the call based on the country code to the correct country's gateway,
which then strips off the country code, changes the tag to "national",
and forwards the call to its own national network.

An interesting case is when you dial "+1...", which is tagged as
"18005551212" in "international" format, within the NANP. Normally,
this would be routed to the international network as above, but I highly
suspect that GSM carriers have configured their switches to recognize
this as a special case and do the conversion themselves, to avoid
bouncing such calls via an int'l gateway.

Inbound calls are presented with "1".

Possibly correct, but I suspect for the wrong reasons.

Customer-facing switches may de-normalize Caller ID information before
passing it to customers. In the NANP, that may mean prepending a "1"
for numbers tagged as "national" and "011" or "+" for numbers tagged as
"international".

Some carriers don't bother de-normalizing numbers--or do a bad job of
it--and the result may be something that isn't dialable. Oops.

This is very confusing for most Merkins because our country code looks
very similar to our long-distance access code--only the presence of the
"+" distinguishes between the two.

You're the one who is confused here, as you seem to believe that GSM
has a concept of a trunk code as part of the way it sends the telephone
number. Also, "1" was never an NNTP-wide trunk code even though it was
somewhat common. It really depended on what switch the telephone company
deployed.

Wrong. See above.

There are several countries in the NANP that charge ridiculous int'l
toll rates for numbers, hoping that clueless Americans can be enticed
into dialing them, but that's it.

You're talking about that fraud. Calls didn't even terminate there. The
telecom was splitting the long distance settlement fees with those
call centers.

Also, there are new countries in the NANP.

The fraud was in _not terminating_ the calls in the country in question.
The ridiculous int'l tolls themselves were (and still are) legitimate
for calls _actually terminated_ in those countries, though they have
come down in recent years for unrelated reasons.

No, they were premium rate numbers as well, not just ordinary international
per minute charges. They were attempting to collect a **** load of money.

Doing so is perfectly legal, not fraud, as long as the call actually
terminates in that country.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 04-Apr-12 13:15, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 31-Mar-12 13:10, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 31-Mar-12 10:48, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

+ is the international instruction to dial the routing digits to make
an international call. I believe we all recognize it.

You'd be surprised. Many Americans probably don't know what our int'l
dialing prefix is since they've never used it--and it's not necessary
for int'l calls to other countries in the NANP.

I have a GSM handset.

So your dialing isn't broken by design, as it is with CDMA and iDEN
handsets (and, formerly, AMPS and TDMA).

You and your over-the-top opinions.

GSM dials calls in international format for the simple reason that it was
designed initially for European use, where there are 30 country codes.
How many country codes are there in the NANP, Steven?

GSM doesn't "dial calls" in any particular format, Abam.

Wrong again, Stephen.

Users dial calls, and the number is interpreted by the switch.

It's a cell phone. "Switch" is not a concept that applies.

All GSM switches will accept calls in E.164 format (i.e. including the +)
_as well as_ one or more local dialing formats.

Must you be deliberately obtuse? No matter what diailng sequence the
phone accepts from me, the number is sent in international format.

This isn't a matter of controversy, so just drop this bull****.

If you dial "1" rather than "+1" for NANP calls, you are _not_ dialing
with a country code but rather with the long distance access code, which
AFAIK is optional on all NA mobile operators.

For the 27th time, Steven: GSM doesn't have a concept of trunk codes,
only international dialing format.

Wrong. See above.

You don't know what the **** you are talking about. You're now beyond
tiresome, so the rest is snipped.

On 04-Apr-12 18:27, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 04-Apr-12 13:15, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 31-Mar-12 13:10, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 31-Mar-12 10:48, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
+ is the international instruction to dial the routing digits to make
an international call. I believe we all recognize it.

You'd be surprised. Many Americans probably don't know what our int'l
dialing prefix is since they've never used it--and it's not necessary
for int'l calls to other countries in the NANP.

I have a GSM handset.

So your dialing isn't broken by design, as it is with CDMA and iDEN
handsets (and, formerly, AMPS and TDMA).

You and your over-the-top opinions.

GSM dials calls in international format for the simple reason that it was
designed initially for European use, where there are 30 country codes.
How many country codes are there in the NANP, Steven?

GSM doesn't "dial calls" in any particular format, Abam.

Wrong again, Stephen.

No, I'm not.

Users dial calls, and the number is interpreted by the switch.

It's a cell phone. "Switch" is not a concept that applies.

_All_ phones are connected to a switch.

All GSM switches will accept calls in E.164 format (i.e. including the +)
_as well as_ one or more local dialing formats.

Must you be deliberately obtuse? No matter what diailng sequence the
phone accepts from me, the number is sent in international format.

Wrong, Adam. A GSM phone passes the number dialed to the switch without
modifying it in any way.

Some numbers (eg. 911) don't _have_ an E.164 equivalent.

This isn't a matter of controversy, so just drop this bull****.

It will remain a matter of "controversy" as long as you keep insisting
that your misperceptions are reality.

If you dial "1" rather than "+1" for NANP calls, you are _not_ dialing
with a country code but rather with the long distance access code, which
AFAIK is optional on all NA mobile operators.

For the 27th time, Steven: GSM doesn't have a concept of trunk codes,
only international dialing format.

Wrong. See above.

You don't know what the **** you are talking about. You're now beyond
tiresome, so the rest is snipped.

Obviously, I do know what I'm talking about, as demonstrated by the text
that you snipped. I suspect the _real_ reason you did so is that you
know you're beaten and refuse to admit it.

It's okay to be wrong, Adam. What's not okay is refusing to acknowledge
it and learn from it.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking