On Apr 1, 6:15*pm, wrote:
On Apr 1, 6:20*am, wrote:

*Letters on dials were originally to aid in dialing exchange names, eg
PEnnsylvania 6-5000 instead of 736-5000. *The US gradually
transitioned to "All Number Calling" by 1980.

I wrote a reply to this, but for some reason Google Groups won't allow
me to send it. *I'll try to send it as a reply just to you, which may
be better since it's quite long, and off-topic for this group.-

The above came through fine. *Not sure why google rejected your other
reply.

An email won't work. *This thread has already gone way off topic, so
it probably won't hurt to post it publicly. *Others may find it of
interest. *Maybe break it up into parts. *Thanks.

(Trains and telecommunications have many 'connections' in that they're
both common carriers, some of telephone technology is used for
signalling, and trains always have been heavy users of
telecommunications, including development of their own networks.)

Your post which I was trying to reply to is on Google Groups, in both
uk.railway and misc.transport.rail.americas, but does not appear in
either group in Giganews; I don't know what's going on.

The reply which I tried to send earlier was:

Somewhat different here. 0 was not used for the operator, at least
not in my time, the operator was 100. 0 was used for subscriber trunk
dialing. I think 0 may have been used for the operator in the early
days, but that was before my time. Normal GPO dials did not have the
word 'Operator' on them. 0 is still used to call the local operator
on PABX systems.

Leaving aside some very early dials, and special ones for pre-payment
callboxes, test instruments etc. there were four main GPO dials, the
10, 12, 21 and 54a. The 10 was used on candlesticks and early
Bakelite 'phones and was available in L (etter) and F (igure)
versions. The L dial plate, had only M and N on the 6 hole; O was on
the zero hole; there was no Q and no Z, Later dials added the Q in
the zero hole.

The 21 was introduced for the new thermoplastic 706 'phone in 1959.
This was basically our version of the 500. As with the 500 the
letters and figures were on a ring outside the fingerwheel, but this
ring was a separate part, fixed to the body of the 'phone by a metal
clip at the back, rather than an enlarged dial plate, as used by the
dial on the 500, Inside the finger holes there were arrowheads
pointing out to the numbers on the ring, rather than the dots which
the 500 used. This was known as the 'C' plate. The 'L' and 'C'
plates were also made for the 21 dial to enable it to be used as a
replacement for the 10 and 12 dials in older instruments. The 'L'
plate was also used, with a blank outer ring, after all-figure numbers
were introduced some time in the '60s. The 746, a slightly updated
version of the 706 was fitted with this arrangement. The 54a dial was
a cheaper, lightweight version of the 21, used the same dial plates
and finger wheels as the 21, but could not be used in the older
candlestick and bakelite instruments. The 54a lasted until the end of
the dial era. Many early puss button 'phones here were LD (pulse)
only, with ten buttons. Later models had twelve buttons, and were
DTMF or dual signaling.

These three sites should tell you jest about everything you want to
know about British telephones:

www.telephonesuk.co.uk

www.britishtelephones.com

www.samhallas.co.uk/telecomms.htm

Some of my collection can be seen he

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/f...p?topic=1397.0

That's a 12F dial in the candlestick, which I've later replaced with
the correct 10F. The 232 Bakelite pyramid has a 10L, but you may not
be able to read the letters in the photographs. Towards the end of
the thread on page 5 there is a list of all of the American 'phones in
my collection, though I've since added a couple more. All work,
though several fave frequency ringers, and so won't ring.

Out ringing current is 75 V 25 Hz., rather than your 90 V 20 Hz. but
this is close enough for your straight line fingers to work here, and
ours will work over there. As for the dials, 10 pps is standard in
both places. The break ratio is different, I think ours is 66% and
yours is 60%, or have I got that the wrong way round? Anyway, again
it's close enough to work. Our ringing cadence of 0.4s on, 0.2s off,
0.4s on 2s off is also different to yours of course. Half way down
page two of this thread: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/f...p?topic=1254.0
there's a post from me with a mp3 file of what it sounds like.

A comparison of out 706 with your 500: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/f...hp?topic=804.0

A comparison of our 300 series Bakelite with your (older metal case)
302: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/f...p?topic=1189.0

The 302 has since been fitted with some decent cloth cords and a four
prong plug.

Google let me post it this time, but shows my actual name, rather than
one of my e-mail addresses. Sometimes it does one and sometimes the
other; I don't know why.

After I posted it I noticed an error in the long paragraph; it should
read:

"Inside the finger holes there were arrowheads
pointing out to the numbers on the ring, rather than the dots which
the 500 used. This was known as the 'C' plate. The 'L' and 'F'
plates were also made for the 21 dial to enable it to be used as a
replacement for the 10 and 12 dials in older instruments. The 'F'
plate was also used, with a blank outer ring, after all-figure numbers
were introduced some time in the '60s. The 746, a slightly updated
version of the 706 was fitted with this arrangement."

When the 'L' plate was used with late or refurbished 706s, and with
all 746s, a clear plastic finger wheel was fitted; this was also used
with the 54a dial.

I also typed 'finger' somewhere that I should have typed 'ringer', but
that one should be obvious.

On Apr 1, 3:33*pm, Stephen Furley wrote:


Somewhat different here. *0 was not used for the operator, at least
not in my time, the operator was 100. 0 was used for subscriber trunk
dialing. *. . . [snip]

Your reply came through fine. Interesting information, thanks for
sharing it.


Out ringing current is 75 V 25 Hz., rather than your 90 V 20 Hz. *but
this is close enough for your straight line fingers to work here, and
ours will work over there.

I remember in imported British TV shows, ringing phones had the double
ring (ring ring pause . . .) as compared to our single ring. Our
office building was eventually set up so that outside calls got the
double ring while inside retained the single ring. Key system
telephone sets, which have tone ringers, can be programmed with all
sorts of ringing codes, including multiple tones.


As for the dials, 10 pps is standard in
both places. *The break ratio is different, I think ours is 66% and
yours is 60%, or have I got that the wrong way round?

The modem manual allows the user to issue AT codes to change that
ratio. When I had rotary service, I changed the pulse rate to 20 pps
(left make/break alone).

I believe US exchanges that had panel, crossbar, or ESS could handle
20 pps, while step was limited to 10 pps.


Well into the 1980s some US rail lines still had magneto (local
battery) phones for wayside phones. I think they were still made
until that time. Modern ones had a small crank in place of the dial.

On Apr 1, 2:41*pm, "Adam H. Kerman" wrote:

AT&T created the numbering plan in 1947, and it took effect in 1951. It's
said that they intended to number all the world's countries within it, but
I don't see how there could have possibly been sufficient numbering space..

Given the many challenges in converting the US system to universal 10
digit addressing and converting the remaining manual exchanges to
dial, I don't think they were too concerned with direct dial
international calling at that time. They still had to lay cables to
many places to replace radio for overseas calls.

Some countries couldn't be reached, by any method, until the 1970s.

On Apr 1, 10:01*pm, wrote:
On Apr 1, 3:33*pm, Stephen Furley wrote:

Somewhat different here. *0 was not used for the operator, at least
not in my time, the operator was 100. 0 was used for subscriber trunk
dialing. *. *. . *[snip]

Your reply came through fine. *Interesting information, thanks for
sharing it.

Out ringing current is 75 V 25 Hz., rather than your 90 V 20 Hz. *but
this is close enough for your straight line fingers to work here, and
ours will work over there.

I remember in imported British TV shows, ringing phones had the double
ring (ring ring pause . . .) as compared to our single ring. *Our
office building was eventually set up so that outside calls got the
double ring while inside retained the single ring. *Key system
telephone sets, which have tone ringers, can be programmed with all
sorts of ringing codes, including multiple tones.

As for the dials, 10 pps is standard in
both places. *The break ratio is different, I think ours is 66% and
yours is 60%, or have I got that the wrong way round?

The modem manual allows the user to issue AT codes to change that
ratio. *When I had rotary service, I changed the pulse rate to 20 pps
(left make/break alone).

I believe US exchanges that had panel, crossbar, or ESS could handle
20 pps, while step was limited to 10 pps.

Well into the 1980s some US rail lines still had magneto (local
battery) phones for wayside phones. *I think they were still made
until that time. *Modern ones had a small crank in place of the dial.

Are you finding that the inks which I pasted in don't work? I am, but
if I put the HTTP:// back in they do.

Sam Hallas whose site one of he links goes to worked in
telecommunications on the railways here. Many Leich telephones with
the magneto handle where the dial would normally be turn up on Ebay; I
suspect that at least some of those are ex railway.

On Apr 1, 5:34*pm, wrote:

Are you finding that the inks which I pasted in don't work? *I am, but
if I put the HTTP:// back in they do.

Yes, I got to it. Interesting stuff. thanks for sharing it.


Would you know if the British railway system ever had radio phones for
use by passengers as premier American trains did?

Also, at one time almost every US train station had a payphone, but
they are rare to find now. Some stations still have them mostly to
serve as an emergency phone (no charge to call police), though of
course one can still make a normal call. Overall, pay phones have
become rather rare in the US thanks to cell phones, and cheaper phone
rates.

Do British railway stations still have pay phones?

(In the old days, most large places of employment had a pay phone for
employees to make personal calls. Today, many employers allow
employees to use the office phone for a quick personal call.)

On Apr 2, 4:28*pm, Owain wrote:
On Apr 2, 2:43*pm, wrote:

Would you know if the British railway system ever had radio phones for
use by passengers as premier American trains did?

Yes, but not terribly widespread, and not used very much because of
the cost of calls.

They were introduced at about the same time that the original analogue
cellular 'phones were starting to become generally available, but not
many people had them. The ones I saw, on the 125 mph Diesel High
Speed Trains, probably around the early to mid '80s took only BT
Phonecards, not cash. Reception was rather poor at that time in many
areas.

Also, at one time almost every US train station had a payphone, but
they are rare to find now. *Some stations still have them mostly to
serve as an emergency phone (no charge to call police), though of
course one can still make a normal call. *Overall, pay phones have
become rather rare in the US thanks to cell phones, and cheaper phone
rates.

Do British railway stations still have pay phones?

Many do, including some surprisingly small unstaffed ones. Many
railway stations now also have CCTV and help point speakerphones to
contact the CCTV operator for assistance or to obtain train times.
CCTV operators can also make announcements to unstaffed stations over
'long line public address' in the event of service disruption or to
challenge vandals etc.

Owain

On some stations there's a railway 'phone in a metal box, with a
notice saying that it can be used by passengers to contact the
signaller to obtain information about train running. I've seen these
at stations on the Settle-Carlisle line, which runs through some very
remote areas for example.

There are still a surprising number of BT telephone kiosks around in
the street, despite the fact that they seem to get very little use
these days.

On Apr 2, 11:28*am, Owain wrote:

Many do, including some surprisingly small unstaffed ones. Many
railway stations now also have CCTV and help point speakerphones to
contact the CCTV operator for assistance or to obtain train times.
CCTV operators can also make announcements to unstaffed stations over
'long line public address' in the event of service disruption or to
challenge vandals etc.


I've been told it's cheaper to arrange for a traditional pay phone at
a station as opposed to "help point speakerphone". The railway has to
pay for either one. If for some reason the pay phone had heavy usage,
the railway would get a commission, as happened in the old days. But
now the phones get very little use.

The cost of a local call in the US at a pay phone today is 50c. Long
distance rates vary greatly, and if a caller is not careful, can be
$25.00 for a quick call, which is ridiculous. Some pay phones take
coins for long distance at 25c/minute, and some have special deals
even for overseas calls.

When I was a kid a local payphone call was 10c. But long distance
could be expensive, for instance, a call to a place 60 miles away was
40c for the first 3 minutes.

On Apr 2, 12:03*pm, Stephen Furley wrote:

On some stations there's a railway 'phone in a metal box, with a
notice saying that it can be used by passengers to contact the
signaller to obtain information about train running. *I've seen these
at stations on the Settle-Carlisle line, which runs through some very
remote areas for example.

That's a nice feature.

It used to be the ticket agent at a US station would call the
dispatcher to get train status. But now some won't bother.

wrote:
The cost of a local call in the US at a pay phone today is 50c.

No, it varies. While 50 cents is the most common price, most phones
in NYC are 25 cents. And I think I've seen a few phones where local
calls are a dollar.

Jimmy