Mike Bristow wrote:

In article ,
d wrote:
There are plenty of journeys available already. Has anyone seen someone in
a wheelchair on the tube yet?

There are 66 stations which step-free from street to platform. That
means that there are 66 time 65 (just over 4 thousand) possible
journeys with both ends step-free. Assuming all the interchanges
are step free, of course.

There are 270 stations total. That means that there are 270*269
(or just over 72 thousand) possible journeys on LuL.

That means that around 6% of journeys are possible step-free.


That is perhaps an overly pessimistic view. All a wheelchair user
needs is a bus service to an accessible LUL station. That makes the
step-free network available to a much wider range of users than 6%
would suggest.


If LuL wish to improve things, more power to them: 6% is dreadfully
low. Remember that the design life of S-Stock is probably around
30 years - and a lot can change in that time. In the mean time,
step free adaptations are mostly benifiting those with prams and
luggage; for them, a step free station at one end of the journey
will help as they have the option of strugling up the stairs at the
other end.


Indeed.

Thank you for pointing out how ridiculous Boltar's statement was.

On 05/11/2012 20:09, Anthony Polson wrote:

Mike Bristow wrote:
[snip]
There are 66 stations which step-free from street to platform. That
means that there are 66 time 65 (just over 4 thousand) possible
journeys with both ends step-free. Assuming all the interchanges
are step free, of course.

There are 270 stations total. That means that there are 270*269
(or just over 72 thousand) possible journeys on LuL.

That means that around 6% of journeys are possible step-free.

That is perhaps an overly pessimistic view. All a wheelchair user
needs is a bus service to an accessible LUL station. That makes the
step-free network available to a much wider range of users than 6%
would suggest.


If LuL wish to improve things, more power to them: 6% is dreadfully
low. Remember that the design life of S-Stock is probably around
30 years - and a lot can change in that time. In the mean time,
step free adaptations are mostly benifiting those with prams and
luggage; for them, a step free station at one end of the journey
will help as they have the option of strugling up the stairs at the
other end.

Indeed.

Thank you for pointing out how ridiculous Boltar's statement was.

Though I think Boltar's statement pointed out how ridiculous Boltar's
statement was, but there's no harm in reiterating the point.

In article ,
Anthony Polson wrote:
Mike Bristow wrote:
[snip math]
That means that around 6% of journeys are possible step-free.


That is perhaps an overly pessimistic view. All a wheelchair user
needs is a bus service to an accessible LUL station. That makes the
step-free network available to a much wider range of users than 6%
would suggest.

This is sort-of true. But at a substantial time penalty.

Pick Leytonstone - Paddington (choosen purely because that's the
journey I'd make when visiting the inlaws). With no access needs,
the journey is 40-45 minutes, if you believe the journey planner.
If you need step-free access to the platform: 1h15-1h20 (again, if
you believe the journey planner).

Roughly double the time.

I've been toying with a FoI request to get a "snapshot" of journeys
made, and then hitting journey planner to see how bad the time
penalty of "just use the bus to join the dots" is, on average, but
I'm too lazy.

Thank you for pointing out how ridiculous Boltar's statement was.

Taking the opposite view to Boltar will see you right 9 times out of
ten, on average...

Cheers,

--
Mike Bristow

In article , (Mike
Bristow) wrote:

In article ,
d wrote:
There are plenty of journeys available already. Has anyone seen someone
in a wheelchair on the tube yet?

There are 66 stations which step-free from street to platform. That
means that there are 66 time 65 (just over 4 thousand) possible
journeys with both ends step-free. Assuming all the interchanges
are step free, of course.

There are 270 stations total. That means that there are 270*269
(or just over 72 thousand) possible journeys on LuL.

That means that around 6% of journeys are possible step-free.

Er, probably not. I rather doubt that the number of journeys between each
possible pair of stations is equal. I would expect the steep-free stations
cover most of the busier stations so the percentage of journeys that are
possible step-free is much higher than 6%.

If LuL wish to improve things, more power to them: 6% is dreadfully
low. Remember that the design life of S-Stock is probably around
30 years - and a lot can change in that time. In the mean time,
step free adaptations are mostly benifiting those with prams and
luggage; for them, a step free station at one end of the journey
will help as they have the option of strugling up the stairs at the
other end.

This paragraph is therefore partly based on a false assumption.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Mike Bristow wrote:

In article ,
Anthony Polson wrote:
Mike Bristow wrote:
[snip math]
That means that around 6% of journeys are possible step-free.


That is perhaps an overly pessimistic view. All a wheelchair user
needs is a bus service to an accessible LUL station. That makes the
step-free network available to a much wider range of users than 6%
would suggest.

This is sort-of true. But at a substantial time penalty.


I doubt that journey time matters quite so much to the average
wheelchair-bound person as it does to the rest of us. Cost is an
important issue and the only realistic alternative to bus-train-bus
would be an expensive taxi journey.

In article ,
wrote:
Er, probably not. I rather doubt that the number of journeys between each
possible pair of stations is equal.

True, but in the absence of data I approximated.

I really should put in a FoI request to get better data...

I would expect the steep-free stations
cover most of the busier stations so the percentage of journeys that are
possible step-free is much higher than 6%.

I think this is not true; look at the Central Line. The accessible
stations are Stratford (probably one of the busier stations on the
line; but I'd guess Liverpool Street and Bank are as busy), Woodford,
Roding Valley, Hainault, and Epping.

Two things are noticeable: They're all out east; and most of them
are teeny-tiny-overground stations.

Looking at Central London, the only station inside the Circle Line
that's accessible is Green Park and Bank DLR (is that inside or
outside the circle?).

Basically, tiney-tiny overground (or nearly overground) stations
out in the sticks are much easier and cheaper to make accessable -
bung in a couple of short lifts and you're done. The busier central
stations are complex, and often deep. underground; this makes them
much harder to make step-free as you'd have to put in more lifts
and they're much longer. And you have to do it underground. And
there's less space on the surface, so you'd need to buy and demolish
an expensive building to do much.

All in all much more expensive. If you were TfL, and you had some
dosh explicitly to improve accessibility, would you make Oxford
Circus accessible, or make every station north of Leyton accessible?
It wouldn't surprise me if both of those plans would cost the same;
and the best thing to do for disabled Londoners is not at all obvious.

If LuL wish to improve things, more power to them: 6% is dreadfully
low. Remember that the design life of S-Stock is probably around
30 years - and a lot can change in that time. In the mean time,
step free adaptations are mostly benifiting those with prams and
luggage; for them, a step free station at one end of the journey
will help as they have the option of strugling up the stairs at the
other end.

This paragraph is therefore partly based on a false assumption.

An approximation, yes, but I think it's reasonable.


--
Mike Bristow

On Mon, 5 Nov 2012 16:52:07 +0000
Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
d wrote:
There are plenty of journeys available already. Has anyone seen someone in
a wheelchair on the tube yet?

There are 66 stations which step-free from street to platform. That
means that there are 66 time 65 (just over 4 thousand) possible
journeys with both ends step-free. Assuming all the interchanges
are step free, of course.

There are 270 stations total. That means that there are 270*269
(or just over 72 thousand) possible journeys on LuL.

That means that around 6% of journeys are possible step-free.

Your maths is up the spout. Its 6% of *possible* journeys but how many people
take the tube from say cockfosters to oakwood or epping to loughton? The
actually percentage of sane commuter journeys they can do is a lot higher.

step free adaptations are mostly benifiting those with prams and
luggage; for them, a step free station at one end of the journey
will help as they have the option of strugling up the stairs at the
other end.

Given that luggage and prams on the tube in the rush hour is a PITA for
everyone else thats hardly something to look forward to.

B2003

On Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:37:56 -0000
Jim [wake wrote:
In article , d
says...

On Mon, 5 Nov 2012 10:55:25 +0000 (UTC)
Nick Leverton wrote:
There are plenty of journeys available already. Has anyone seen someone in
a wheelchair on the tube yet?

Why are you so focussed on wheelchairs ? Plenty of people have problems

I'm not, but LU are. All these changes are SPECIFICALLY for wheelchair users,
not people who need a stick to walk and so on.

B2003

Wheelchair users seen on Central, Jubilee, Northern and District Lines
at various times last year and this year.

Oh really? Which bits specifically?

B2003

In article , d
says...

On Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:37:56 -0000
Jim [wake wrote:
In article , d
says...

On Mon, 5 Nov 2012 10:55:25 +0000 (UTC)
Nick Leverton wrote:
There are plenty of journeys available already. Has anyone seen someone in
a wheelchair on the tube yet?

Why are you so focussed on wheelchairs ? Plenty of people have problems

I'm not, but LU are. All these changes are SPECIFICALLY for wheelchair users,
not people who need a stick to walk and so on.

B2003

Wheelchair users seen on Central, Jubilee, Northern and District Lines
at various times last year and this year.

Oh really? Which bits specifically?

B2003

Central Line :: Wanstead to beyond Liverpool Street [passenger had to
struggle to get the wheelchair down the ecalator]

Jubilee Line :: Stratford to North Greenwich, Canary Wharf to London
Bridge, Canada Water to beyond London Bridge

Northern Line :: London Bridge to Euston

District Line :: East Ham travelling westbound, West Ham travelling
westbound, also at other times but I don't remember where.

On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:08:57 -0000
Jim [wake wrote:
Oh really? Which bits specifically?

B2003

Central Line :: Wanstead to beyond Liverpool Street [passenger had to
struggle to get the wheelchair down the ecalator]

So how did he manage that then? Stand up and hold it?

Jubilee Line :: Stratford to North Greenwich, Canary Wharf to London
Bridge, Canada Water to beyond London Bridge

Northern Line :: London Bridge to Euston

District Line :: East Ham travelling westbound, West Ham travelling
westbound, also at other times but I don't remember where.

Sorry, don't believe you. I've never seen anyone in a wheelchair on the tube.
Ever. What are the chances of you seeing them all those times and me never
seeing any? Slim.

B2003