On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 08:18:20 -0800 (PST), bob wrote:

On Dec 5, 2:08*pm, Anthony Polson wrote:
wrote:
I suppose the plus side of diesels is that they don't have to worry about
dodgy eletricity supplies. Though you have to wonder how the metro systems
in places like canada and oslo manage to run when its -20C and snow a metre
deep.

Because they get those conditions every winter and are completely
geared up to dealing with them?

Not just that, when the infrastructure was being designed and
installed, it was known that such low temperatures and regular
snowfalls would be a routine part of operations, so design decisions
were taken to accommodate them. This was not the case in the UK. An
example being the use of uncovered top-contact 3rd or 3rd/4th rail.
Fine in warm and/or wet conditions, terrible in snow/ice.

Chicago Transit Authority (the L) lines are all bare third rail and
they seem to manage during most snowfalls.

Clark Morris

We cannot cope with snow because we don't get it every year so are not
geared up for it at all. *That applies across most industries and
transport modes, not just rail. *Just look at the way the road system
grinds to a halt when it snows, because councils are unable to cope
and most motorists haven't got a clue about choosing the right tyres
for their vehicles.

The other issue is considering the ballance between the cost of
providing infrastructure to deal with cold and snow against the cost
of everything shutting down when it snows. If it only snows a couple
of days every two or three years, it's cheaper just to declare it a
snow day and stay at home. If there's snow on the ground for 3 months
of the year every year, that isn't an option.

Robin

On Dec 5, 1:08*pm, Anthony Polson wrote:
wrote:
I suppose the plus side of diesels is that they don't have to worry about
dodgy eletricity supplies. Though you have to wonder how the metro systems
in places like canada and oslo manage to run when its -20C and snow a metre
deep.

Because they get those conditions every winter and are completely
geared up to dealing with them?

We cannot cope with snow because we don't get it every year so are not
geared up for it at all. *That applies across most industries and
transport modes, not just rail. *Just look at the way the road system
grinds to a halt when it snows, because councils are unable to cope
and most motorists haven't got a clue about choosing the right tyres
for their vehicles.

I'm not so persuaded by this, because it seems to me that every year
now we hear the excuse that "we don't get this weather every year"!

BrianW wrote:

On Dec 5, 1:08*pm, Anthony Polson wrote:
wrote:
I suppose the plus side of diesels is that they don't have to worry about
dodgy eletricity supplies. Though you have to wonder how the metro systems
in places like canada and oslo manage to run when its -20C and snow a metre
deep.

Because they get those conditions every winter and are completely
geared up to dealing with them?

We cannot cope with snow because we don't get it every year so are not
geared up for it at all. *That applies across most industries and
transport modes, not just rail. *Just look at the way the road system
grinds to a halt when it snows, because councils are unable to cope
and most motorists haven't got a clue about choosing the right tyres
for their vehicles.

I'm not so persuaded by this, because it seems to me that every year
now we hear the excuse that "we don't get this weather every year"!


For a period of 15 years we had hardly any snow in winter south of the
Peak District. During that period, when climatologists were telling
us that winter snow was gone for good because of climate change, how
persuaded would you have been by a proposal to invest many tens of
£ millions of taxpayers' money in snow and ice clearance measures for
the railways of the south east of England?

"Anthony Polson" wrote in message
...
d wrote:

I suppose the plus side of diesels is that they don't have to worry about
dodgy eletricity supplies. Though you have to wonder how the metro systems
in places like canada and oslo manage to run when its -20C and snow a
metre
deep.


Because they get those conditions every winter and are completely
geared up to dealing with them?

We cannot cope with snow because we don't get it every year so are not
geared up for it at all. That applies across most industries and
transport modes, not just rail. Just look at the way the road system
grinds to a halt when it snows, because councils are unable to cope
and most motorists haven't got a clue about choosing the right tyres
for their vehicles.


I am told that it was approx 2cm of snow. That should not have a major
impact on anything. Meanwhile, in South Wales, we have the usual Cardiff
weather, i.e. heavy rain! Give me snow any day.

John

Though you have to wonder how the metro systems in places like
canada and oslo manage to run when its -20C and snow a metre deep.

Because they get those conditions every winter and are completely
geared up to dealing with them?

No, actually, we don't. When Toronto had a storm in 1999 that did
produce about 1 m of snow over two days, the above-ground parts of
the subway system had numerous problems. It has top-contact third
rail with a coverboard. Normally the trains brush the snow off the
rail before enough can settle to cause a problem, and all they have
to do in case of a snowstorm is to run some trains overnight on the
above-ground sections; but with the big snowfall there was nowhere
for the snow to be brushed *to*.

The same storm caused similar results in Chicago, which is at about
the same latitude but has uncovered third rail and their system is
mostly elevated.

In Montreal, on the other hand, snow is not an issue because the Metro
is entirely below ground.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "This man must be very ignorant, for he answers
| every question he is asked." -- Voltaire

My text in this article is in the public domain.

d writes:

NSR?

I suppose the plus side of diesels is that they don't have to worry about
dodgy eletricity supplies. Though you have to wonder how the metro systems
in places like canada and oslo manage to run when its -20C and snow a metre
deep.

They use a better grade of electricity.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 12:38:08 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:

Though you have to wonder how the metro systems
in places like canada and oslo manage to run when its -20C and snow a metre
deep.

The Oslo metro (T-bane, Tunnellbane) have a raised third rail with a cover
where the contact is made on the underside.

--
jhk

On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 21:12:41 +0100
Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 12:38:08 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:

Though you have to wonder how the metro systems
in places like canada and oslo manage to run when its -20C and snow a metre
deep.

The Oslo metro (T-bane, Tunnellbane) have a raised third rail with a cover
where the contact is made on the underside.

That may be so , but generally its not the 3rd rail that causes everything
to grind to a halt. Its usually snow in the motors or signal failures or
slipping wheels or frozen points or something else from the Big Bumper Book
of Railway Excuses (available at a Christmas discount from Poundshop no doubt).

And its really not that hard to fit trains with some brushes and de-icing
fluid to keep the 3rd rails clear and if it really becomes a problem I can't
see why they couldn't just cover the 3rd rails and use a US style slat contact
instead of shoes. I suspect a lot cheaper than converting to overhead.

B2003

On Thu, Dec 06, 2012 at 10:12:07AM +0000, d wrote:

And its really not that hard to fit trains with some brushes and de-icing
fluid to keep the 3rd rails clear

Have you done any sums to figure out how much de-icing fluid would be
needed? And have you ever tried clearing ice off your car's windows
with just a brush? No, you need rather more than just a brush.

and if it really becomes a problem I can't
see why they couldn't just cover the 3rd rails and use a US style slat contact
instead of shoes. I suspect a lot cheaper than converting to overhead.

So you want to modify all the trains, all the track, and all the
lineside equipment that the modified trains will now bash into? Yeah,
that'll be cheap.

--
David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness

THIS IS THE LANGUAGE POLICE
PUT DOWN YOUR THESAURUS
STEP AWAY FROM THE CLICHE

On 5/12/12 11:58, in article
, "77002"
wrote:

On 5 Dec, 09:50, wrote:
Problems on the central line, piccadilly line, bakerloo suspended north
of wherever it was. Overground suspended north of wilseden. Why? Slightly
below freezing temps and a few flakes of snow. What an utter farce TfL is.
And they have the gall to put the fares up yet again above inflation in Jan.

Meanwhile the roads were fine.

Last year NSR was the same. SWT continued until there was real snow.
The FGW diesels carried on running to Brighton and Portsmouth
regardless.

I'm replying to your message because the original one from boltar has not
shown up on Giganews for some reason.

I don't know which roads he saw which were 'fine', no doubt there were many,
but my bus took about twice as long as usual to get me to work this morning.
About 1-2 cm of snow on the ground, except where vehicles had removed it.