"Anthony Polson" wrote in message
...
d wrote:

I suppose the plus side of diesels is that they don't have to worry about
dodgy eletricity supplies. Though you have to wonder how the metro systems
in places like canada and oslo manage to run when its -20C and snow a
metre
deep.


Because they get those conditions every winter and are completely
geared up to dealing with them?

We cannot cope with snow because we don't get it every year so are not
geared up for it at all. That applies across most industries and
transport modes, not just rail. Just look at the way the road system
grinds to a halt when it snows, because councils are unable to cope
and most motorists haven't got a clue about choosing the right tyres
for their vehicles.


I am told that it was approx 2cm of snow. That should not have a major
impact on anything. Meanwhile, in South Wales, we have the usual Cardiff
weather, i.e. heavy rain! Give me snow any day.

John

BrianW wrote:

In fairness, it was only supposed to be a light-hearted comment of
mine.


D'oh! :-)

Though you have to wonder how the metro systems in places like
canada and oslo manage to run when its -20C and snow a metre deep.

Because they get those conditions every winter and are completely
geared up to dealing with them?

No, actually, we don't. When Toronto had a storm in 1999 that did
produce about 1 m of snow over two days, the above-ground parts of
the subway system had numerous problems. It has top-contact third
rail with a coverboard. Normally the trains brush the snow off the
rail before enough can settle to cause a problem, and all they have
to do in case of a snowstorm is to run some trains overnight on the
above-ground sections; but with the big snowfall there was nowhere
for the snow to be brushed *to*.

The same storm caused similar results in Chicago, which is at about
the same latitude but has uncovered third rail and their system is
mostly elevated.

In Montreal, on the other hand, snow is not an issue because the Metro
is entirely below ground.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "This man must be very ignorant, for he answers
| every question he is asked." -- Voltaire

My text in this article is in the public domain.

On Wed, Dec 05, 2012 at 01:48:38PM +0000, d wrote:
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 13:08:18 +0000
Anthony Polson wrote:
We cannot cope with snow because we don't get it every year so are not
Its becoming more common

And your evidence for this is what?

Sure, we've had snow for the last three (I think) winters, but you'd
expect that to happen occasionally even in a region that hardly ever
gets any snow.

--
David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice

It wouldn't hurt to think like a serial killer every so often.
Purely for purposes of prevention, of course.

On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 11:49:53 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
On Wed, Dec 05, 2012 at 01:48:38PM +0000, d wrote:
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 13:08:18 +0000
Anthony Polson wrote:
We cannot cope with snow because we don't get it every year so are not
Its becoming more common

And your evidence for this is what?

Sure, we've had snow for the last three (I think) winters, but you'd
expect that to happen occasionally even in a region that hardly ever
gets any snow.

When did it last snow in the sahara? Anyway , the fact that it snows here
at all should be enough for them to get their act together but every year
it seems to come as a complete surprise that it snows in winter and every year
we get the same tired old excuses. Its pathetic.

B2003

On Thu, Dec 06, 2012 at 10:12:07AM +0000, d wrote:

And its really not that hard to fit trains with some brushes and de-icing
fluid to keep the 3rd rails clear

Have you done any sums to figure out how much de-icing fluid would be
needed? And have you ever tried clearing ice off your car's windows
with just a brush? No, you need rather more than just a brush.

and if it really becomes a problem I can't
see why they couldn't just cover the 3rd rails and use a US style slat contact
instead of shoes. I suspect a lot cheaper than converting to overhead.

So you want to modify all the trains, all the track, and all the
lineside equipment that the modified trains will now bash into? Yeah,
that'll be cheap.

--
David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness

THIS IS THE LANGUAGE POLICE
PUT DOWN YOUR THESAURUS
STEP AWAY FROM THE CLICHE

In message , at 11:49:53
on Fri, 7 Dec 2012, David Cantrell remarked:
we've had snow for the last three (I think) winters, but you'd
expect that to happen occasionally even in a region that hardly ever
gets any snow.

It snowed in Nottingham when my children were about 13 or 14 (but only
for a day) and they said it was the first time their locally brought up
friends had ever seen snow. They, on the other hand, have lived in
several other parts of the country and are quite familiar with it, even
to the extent of being disappointed at winters were there's not enough
snow to make a snowman.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 12:04:52 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Dec 06, 2012 at 10:12:07AM +0000, d wrote:

And its really not that hard to fit trains with some brushes and de-icing
fluid to keep the 3rd rails clear

Have you done any sums to figure out how much de-icing fluid would be
needed? And have you ever tried clearing ice off your car's windows
with just a brush? No, you need rather more than just a brush.

If I was brushing it all night it wouldn't frost up in the first place.

and if it really becomes a problem I can't
see why they couldn't just cover the 3rd rails and use a US style slat
contact
instead of shoes. I suspect a lot cheaper than converting to overhead.

So you want to modify all the trains, all the track, and all the
lineside equipment that the modified trains will now bash into? Yeah,
that'll be cheap.

Why would anything need to be modified other than the pickups? Instead of a
shoe sitting on the rail you have a slat poking out onto it. Nothing else
apart from the 3rd rail cover would be needed and until they put that on
then trains with old style shoes and trains with slats could interoperate.

ITYF it'd be a damn site cheaper then erecting catenary throughout the
southeast, adding transformers and pantographs to 3rd rail stock and binning
the ones that can't be converted. And thats before the problem of bridge
and tunnel clearances raises it ugly head.

B2003

In message , at 12:19:45 on Fri, 7 Dec
2012, d remarked:
Have you done any sums to figure out how much de-icing fluid would be
needed? And have you ever tried clearing ice off your car's windows
with just a brush? No, you need rather more than just a brush.

If I was brushing it all night it wouldn't frost up in the first place.

Of course it would. The remaining moisture in the air would frost the
window in between brush strokes (which are only any good at clearing
snow, not frost and ice). Unless you are pouring de-icer continuously,
and one of the drawbacks of de-icer is that the alcohols evaporate and
make the glass even colder than ambient.
--
Roland Perry

On 7 Dec, 13:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:19:45 on Fri, 7 Dec
2012, remarked:

Have you done any sums to figure out how much de-icing fluid would be
needed? *And have you ever tried clearing ice off your car's windows
with just a brush? *No, you need rather more than just a brush.

If I was brushing it all night it wouldn't frost up in the first place.

Of course it would. The remaining moisture in the air would frost the
window in between brush strokes (which are only any good at clearing
snow, not frost and ice). Unless you are pouring de-icer continuously,
and one of the drawbacks of de-icer is that the alcohols evaporate and
make the glass even colder than ambient.

IIRC, TfL's predecessors used to coat the conductor rail with some
sort of grease during the cold season. The conductor did not ice
over. Arcing was much reduced.