"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 16:54:32 -0000, "tim....."
wrote:

however not fixing the OSI "bug" does seem to be deliberate.

What "bug"? I am not aware of such a thing.

A genuine stop at an OIS that looks like transfer generating two unresolved
journeys causing them to receive two maximum charges and no capping

tim

"tim....." wrote:

A genuine stop at an OIS that looks like transfer generating two
unresolved journeys causing them to receive two maximum charges and no capping

Is that still broken? It needs fixing such that if you over-run the
timeout the next touch in, if it is at a station that is a possible part of
an OSI, closes the previous journey and opens a new one.

Penalties should always allow false negatives if that is an alternative to
silly false positives like those.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
"tim....." wrote:

A genuine stop at an OIS that looks like transfer generating two
unresolved journeys causing them to receive two maximum charges and no
capping

Is that still broken?

Apparently (never experienced it myself)

It needs fixing such that if you over-run the
timeout the next touch in, if it is at a station that is a possible part
of
an OSI, closes the previous journey and opens a new one.

Unfortunately it has to close the previous touch in/out. That's why it's
non trivial to solve. But it can't be impossible

tim

In message , at 12:04:38 on Mon, 17
Dec 2012, tim..... remarked:
It needs fixing such that if you over-run the
timeout the next touch in, if it is at a station that is a possible
part of
an OSI, closes the previous journey and opens a new one.

Unfortunately it has to close the previous touch in/out. That's why
it's non trivial to solve. But it can't be impossible

The simplest suggestion, which I mentioned long ago, would be to either
add a facility to the ticket machines to "close my journey NOW", or
simpler (but more expensive) have a "close my journey NOW" validator
somewhere on the concourse.

I see no reason why the concept of OSI needs to be such a secret and you
could have dumbed-down signs saying something like:

"Finished your journey? Touch the purple validator to ensure you
are charged the correct fare".

If you wanted the general public to avoid the problem.
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 12:04:38 on Mon, 17
Dec 2012, tim..... remarked:
It needs fixing such that if you over-run the timeout the next touch
in, if it is at a station that is a possible part of an OSI, closes the
previous journey and opens a new one.

Unfortunately it has to close the previous touch in/out. That's why
it's non trivial to solve. But it can't be impossible

The simplest suggestion, which I mentioned long ago, would be to either
add a facility to the ticket machines to "close my journey NOW", or
simpler (but more expensive) have a "close my journey NOW" validator
somewhere on the concourse.

I see no reason why the concept of OSI needs to be such a secret and you
could have dumbed-down signs saying something like:

"Finished your journey? Touch the purple validator to ensure you
are charged the correct fare".

If you wanted the general public to avoid the problem.

How would that work with gates, by far the majority touching out method? Any
rational person would expect that exiting by a gate would close a journey.
If you find out only months later that it didn't TfL say "stuff you".

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 14:46:18
on Mon, 17 Dec 2012, remarked:
It needs fixing such that if you over-run the timeout the next touch
in, if it is at a station that is a possible part of an OSI, closes the
previous journey and opens a new one.

Unfortunately it has to close the previous touch in/out. That's why
it's non trivial to solve. But it can't be impossible

The simplest suggestion, which I mentioned long ago, would be to either
add a facility to the ticket machines to "close my journey NOW", or
simpler (but more expensive) have a "close my journey NOW" validator
somewhere on the concourse.

I see no reason why the concept of OSI needs to be such a secret and you
could have dumbed-down signs saying something like:

"Finished your journey? Touch the purple validator to ensure you
are charged the correct fare".

If you wanted the general public to avoid the problem.

How would that work with gates, by far the majority touching out method? Any
rational person would expect that exiting by a gate would close a journey.

That's what the signs are supposed to dispel, you'd touch them after the
gate, but regulars would be drip-fed the information that it only
mattered if you were likely to be re-entering the system soon after.

If you find out only months later that it didn't TfL say "stuff you".

TfL seem to be moving into a more "online" mode - for example is the
online 'statement' for Paywave the only one you'll be able to get?

[TfL must know, but they can't be bothered to tell us].

And the online site [now] flags up unresolved journeys right away.

You can also get statements emailed to you.

Yes, it's more work for the customer, but the only way to break through
the "trust me I'm a gripper" mentality.
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
14:46:18 on Mon, 17 Dec 2012, remarked:
It needs fixing such that if you over-run the timeout the next touch
in, if it is at a station that is a possible part of an OSI, closes
the previous journey and opens a new one.

Unfortunately it has to close the previous touch in/out. That's why
it's non trivial to solve. But it can't be impossible

The simplest suggestion, which I mentioned long ago, would be to either
add a facility to the ticket machines to "close my journey NOW", or
simpler (but more expensive) have a "close my journey NOW" validator
somewhere on the concourse.

I see no reason why the concept of OSI needs to be such a secret and
you could have dumbed-down signs saying something like:

"Finished your journey? Touch the purple validator to ensure
you are charged the correct fare".

If you wanted the general public to avoid the problem.

How would that work with gates, by far the majority touching out method?
Any rational person would expect that exiting by a gate would close a
journey.

That's what the signs are supposed to dispel, you'd touch them after
the gate, but regulars would be drip-fed the information that it only
mattered if you were likely to be re-entering the system soon after.

If you find out only months later that it didn't TfL say "stuff you".

TfL seem to be moving into a more "online" mode - for example is the
online 'statement' for Paywave the only one you'll be able to get?

[TfL must know, but they can't be bothered to tell us].

And the online site [now] flags up unresolved journeys right away.

You can also get statements emailed to you.

Yes, it's more work for the customer, but the only way to break
through the "trust me I'm a gripper" mentality.

Not much use for infrequent travellers either.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 14:46:18 on
Mon, 17 Dec 2012, remarked:
It needs fixing such that if you over-run the timeout the next touch
in, if it is at a station that is a possible part of an OSI, closes
the
previous journey and opens a new one.

Unfortunately it has to close the previous touch in/out. That's why
it's non trivial to solve. But it can't be impossible

The simplest suggestion, which I mentioned long ago, would be to either
add a facility to the ticket machines to "close my journey NOW", or
simpler (but more expensive) have a "close my journey NOW" validator
somewhere on the concourse.

I see no reason why the concept of OSI needs to be such a secret and you
could have dumbed-down signs saying something like:

"Finished your journey? Touch the purple validator to ensure you
are charged the correct fare".

If you wanted the general public to avoid the problem.

How would that work with gates, by far the majority touching out method?
Any
rational person would expect that exiting by a gate would close a journey.

That's what the signs are supposed to dispel, you'd touch them after the
gate, but regulars would be drip-fed the information that it only mattered
if you were likely to be re-entering the system soon after.

If you find out only months later that it didn't TfL say "stuff you".

TfL seem to be moving into a more "online" mode - for example is the
online 'statement' for Paywave the only one you'll be able to get?

[TfL must know, but they can't be bothered to tell us].

And the online site [now] flags up unresolved journeys right away.

You can also get statements emailed to you.

Yes, it's more work for the customer, but the only way to break through
the "trust me I'm a gripper" mentality.

You can only get anything at all if you fully register your card.

Unregister cards show balance remaining and nothing more

(At least that's how it used to be, due to the stupidity of having to have a
secure password for something so trivial, I've forgotten my login and can't
reset it. And I can't start a new account because the card is already
registered to a different one).

tim

wrote:

"Finished your journey? Touch the purple validator to ensure you
are charged the correct fare".

Or perhaps more logical one to signify that you are continuing it.

Even better, just close the journey if a touch-back-in doesn't occur within
the OSI time period, if necessary the next time the card is used. Don't
see why that's hard.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

Neil Williams wrote:
wrote:

"Finished your journey? Touch the purple validator to ensure you
are charged the correct fare".

Or perhaps more logical one to signify that you are continuing it.

Even better, just close the journey if a touch-back-in doesn't occur within
the OSI time period, if necessary the next time the card is used. Don't
see why that's hard.

But there's also the issue of the journey time limit, which is where the
problem can arise. For example, let's say journey 1 lasts 80 minutes (90
allowed), and the next journey, from the same station, starts 15 minutes
later (20 mins OSI allowed). The Oyster system will try and combine these
into a single journey, but the combined journey may well exceed the allowed
time, leading to two incomplete journeys.