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London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(12/12/12)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027
The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. I think the previous thread contains a number of misconceptions as to how the system will work - both immediately and when it's rolled out fully - so if I get a mo I'll try and return to them. (Well, I should add that's *my* understanding as to how the system will work - which may be no understanding at all. In particular the notion that a PIN may need to be entered on the bus as is possible with other contactless transactions is rather far of the mark, because AIUI public transport / transit payments using contactless aka payWave cards are a rather different beast to regular contactless payments in retailers etc.) |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027 The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. So With only XX percentage of customers having a "contactless" bank card (I don't have one, and I have 3 bank cards in my wallet). Only usable on the bus and no capping even to the one day buss pass. I predict a complete failure of this experiment tim |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(12/12/12)
On 12/12/2012 21:43, Mizter T wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027 The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. Chiltern are doing a limited experiment with contactless payment for Singles and Returns (including, strangely, Senior Railcard discounts, but *only* Senior Railcard discount) from Great Missenden to Marylebone. You can't just "touch in" at Great Missenden and out at Marylebone, instead you buy a "ticket" from a reprogrammed Parkeon Strada car park payment machine at Great Missenden, which prints a slightly modified car park type ticket. Photos of the machine and a ticket can be found on Flickr at http://sn.im/gmn_contactless Cheers, Barry |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
"tim....." wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027 The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. So With only XX percentage of customers having a "contactless" bank card (I don't have one, and I have 3 bank cards in my wallet). Only usable on the bus and no capping even to the one day buss pass. I predict a complete failure of this experiment It's an experiment to test the technology in the real world, not to prove that large numbers of people will use this limited, first stage implementation. On that basis, it'll be a success if the technology works reliably, even if relatively few people use it at first (perhaps mainly people who left their Oyster cards at home). Oyster also had limited capabilities at first, and features were added in stages. |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(12/12/12)
On 12/12/2012 22:37, tim..... wrote: "Mizter T" wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027 The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. So With only XX percentage of customers having a "contactless" bank card (I don't have one, and I have 3 bank cards in my wallet). Only usable on the bus and no capping even to the one day buss pass. I predict a complete failure of this experiment I (genuinely) totally disagree with you - I think this will eventually become one of the so-called 'killer applications' that pushes the contactless card payment method into the mainstream. (And FWIW, I haven't got a contactless card in my wallet either!) |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(13/12/12)
On 12/12/2012 21:43, Mizter T wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027 The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. I think the previous thread contains a number of misconceptions as to how the system will work - both immediately and when it's rolled out fully - so if I get a mo I'll try and return to them. (Well, I should add that's *my* understanding as to how the system will work - which may be no understanding at all. In particular the notion that a PIN may need to be entered on the bus as is possible with other contactless transactions is rather far of the mark, because AIUI public transport / transit payments using contactless aka payWave cards are a rather different beast to regular contactless payments in retailers etc.) Re the end of original subject line - it read "(12/12/12)" when it should of course have read "(13/12/12)". |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
"tim....." wrote in message
... I predict a complete failure of this experiment tim Its not an experiment. All London buses have Oyster readers and now they all also read NFC cards if anyone wants to use them - indefinitely. I imagine that like Oyster their use will increase steadily and the tube will follow quite soon. They avoid worrying about topups and visitors do not need to buy a special card just to use buses in central London where you cannot pay cash to the driver. |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
Mizter T wrote:
I (genuinely) totally disagree with you - I think this will eventually become one of the so-called 'killer applications' that pushes the contactless card payment method into the mainstream. (And FWIW, I haven't got a contactless card in my wallet either!) I have two, and it means I have to get my Oyster out of my wallet now, while I used to be able to just bang the whole wallet on the reader. But yes, I agree, this will become a "killer app" - particularly for non-London bus companies who don't wish to spend a fortune on the infrastructure to do a PAYG smartcard when the banks can do it for them. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply. |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(12/12/12)
On 12/12/2012 22:37, tim..... wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027 The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. So With only XX percentage of customers having a "contactless" bank card (I don't have one, and I have 3 bank cards in my wallet). Only usable on the bus and no capping even to the one day buss pass. I predict a complete failure of this experiment tim I thought that banks were starting to redistribute cards with the contactless feature, however. --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(12/12/12)
On 12/12/2012 22:58, Mizter T wrote:
On 12/12/2012 22:37, tim..... wrote: "Mizter T" wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027 The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. So With only XX percentage of customers having a "contactless" bank card (I don't have one, and I have 3 bank cards in my wallet). Only usable on the bus and no capping even to the one day buss pass. I predict a complete failure of this experiment I (genuinely) totally disagree with you - I think this will eventually become one of the so-called 'killer applications' that pushes the contactless card payment method into the mainstream. (And FWIW, I haven't got a contactless card in my wallet either!) Will this eventually mean the demise of Oystercards? --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(12/12/12)
On 12/12/2012 23:54, Neil Williams wrote:
Mizter T wrote: I (genuinely) totally disagree with you - I think this will eventually become one of the so-called 'killer applications' that pushes the contactless card payment method into the mainstream. (And FWIW, I haven't got a contactless card in my wallet either!) I have two, and it means I have to get my Oyster out of my wallet now, while I used to be able to just bang the whole wallet on the reader. Depends on the reader, really. I have two contactless transport cards in my current Oyster card holder, one being an Oyster card, the other being from another city on the continent. I can bang them both together on some bus lines and fare gates, and the reader will read only the Oyster Card. Readers on other busses or fare gates will indicate that there is more than one card and that it can distinguish between the two. --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
In message
..net, at 23:54:15 on Wed, 12 Dec 2012, Neil Williams remarked: I agree, this will become a "killer app" - particularly for non-London bus companies who don't wish to spend a fortune on the infrastructure to do a PAYG smartcard Although some (not many) are using ITSO instead, which has the advantage that it works when you aren't paying (twirly card) and also supports season tickets. when the banks can do it for them. Who owns and runs the capping system? And that's not just a TfL sort of capping but bus companies where you buy an "all day" ticket, and then swipe in with it multiple times during the day. -- Roland Perry |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
In message , at 22:49:44 on Wed, 12
Dec 2012, Barry Salter remarked: Chiltern are doing a limited experiment with contactless payment for Singles and Returns (including, strangely, Senior Railcard discounts, but *only* Senior Railcard discount) from Great Missenden to Marylebone. You can't just "touch in" at Great Missenden and out at Marylebone, instead you buy a "ticket" from a reprogrammed Parkeon Strada car park payment machine at Great Missenden, which prints a slightly modified car park type ticket. East Coast badly need contactless payment at their car park machines. Not only do you have to pay through the nose, but they are incredibly slow taking card payments currently. -- Roland Perry |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
"Recliner" wrote in message ... "tim....." wrote: "Mizter T" wrote in message ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027 The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. So With only XX percentage of customers having a "contactless" bank card (I don't have one, and I have 3 bank cards in my wallet). Only usable on the bus and no capping even to the one day buss pass. I predict a complete failure of this experiment It's an experiment to test the technology in the real world, not to prove that large numbers of people will use this limited, first stage implementation. On that basis, it'll be a success if the technology works reliably, How will they know if it works reliably? No-one is going to complain if the don't get charged and few are going to notice if they are overcharged, so how are they going to measure the failure rate? tim |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
wrote in message ... On 12/12/2012 22:58, Mizter T wrote: On 12/12/2012 22:37, tim..... wrote: "Mizter T" wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027 The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. So With only XX percentage of customers having a "contactless" bank card (I don't have one, and I have 3 bank cards in my wallet). Only usable on the bus and no capping even to the one day buss pass. I predict a complete failure of this experiment I (genuinely) totally disagree with you - I think this will eventually become one of the so-called 'killer applications' that pushes the contactless card payment method into the mainstream. (And FWIW, I haven't got a contactless card in my wallet either!) Will this eventually mean the demise of Oystercards? Only if they can find a politically correct way of forcing the unbanked to pay higher fares (who are mainly the young/poor). tim |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
wrote in message ... On 12/12/2012 22:37, tim..... wrote: "Mizter T" wrote in message ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027 The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. So With only XX percentage of customers having a "contactless" bank card (I don't have one, and I have 3 bank cards in my wallet). Only usable on the bus and no capping even to the one day buss pass. I predict a complete failure of this experiment tim I thought that banks were starting to redistribute cards with the contactless feature, however. ITYF that they started this about 2 years ago I still don't have one (not by choice) tim --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... Mizter T wrote: I (genuinely) totally disagree with you - I think this will eventually become one of the so-called 'killer applications' that pushes the contactless card payment method into the mainstream. (And FWIW, I haven't got a contactless card in my wallet either!) I have two, and it means I have to get my Oyster out of my wallet now, while I used to be able to just bang the whole wallet on the reader. But yes, I agree, this will become a "killer app" - particularly for non-London bus companies who don't wish to spend a fortune on the infrastructure to do a PAYG smartcard when the banks can do it for them. Is the bit that you are saving going to be significant? You're still going to have to have a reader in every bus. You still need to download the data each day to some central collation point. You need to provide some sort of intelligent ticketing - most rural bus companies offer discount returns. You'll need a "complaints" department to handle mis-reads. |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option fromtomorrow (12/12/12)
On Dec 13, 1:26*pm, "tim....." wrote:
"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... Mizter T wrote: I (genuinely) totally disagree with you - I think this will eventually become one of the so-called 'killer applications' that pushes the contactless card payment method into the mainstream. (And FWIW, I haven't got a contactless card in my wallet either!) I have two, and it means I have to get my Oyster out of my wallet now, while I used to be able to just bang the whole wallet on the reader. But yes, I agree, this will become a "killer app" - particularly for non-London bus companies who don't wish to spend a fortune on the infrastructure to do a PAYG smartcard when the banks can do it for them.. Is the bit that you are saving going to be significant? You're still going to have to have a reader in every bus. You still need to download the data each day to some central collation point. You need to provide some sort of intelligent ticketing - most rural bus companies offer discount returns. You'll need a "complaints" department to handle mis-reads. And if the bus service is curtailed - that is cut short of its destination - then when you board the bus behind you end up paying twice. That's a scam that TfL have been running for years. It nets them millions of pounds extra profit. Tourists are usually affected by this the most. CJB. |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 06:31:24 -0800 (PST), CJB wrote: And if the bus service is curtailed - that is cut short of its destination - then when you board the bus behind you end up paying twice. That's a scam that TfL have been running for years. It nets them millions of pounds extra profit. Tourists are usually affected by this the most. CJB. As the bus network requires £400m subsidy a year (figure quoted by a Mr Peter Hendy in a recent London Assembly session) I struggle with the concept of TfL making "millions of pounds *extra* profit". I would also be grateful if you could point to the data that underpins your "interesting" [1] statement. You also need to be careful with words like "scam" which suggests deliberate intent to rip people off. however not fixing the OSI "bug" does seem to be deliberate. tim |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(12/12/12)
On 13/12/2012 16:54, tim..... wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote: On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 06:31:24 -0800 (PST), CJB wrote: And if the bus service is curtailed - that is cut short of its destination - then when you board the bus behind you end up paying twice. That's a scam that TfL have been running for years. It nets them millions of pounds extra profit. Tourists are usually affected by this the most. CJB. As the bus network requires £400m subsidy a year (figure quoted by a Mr Peter Hendy in a recent London Assembly session) I struggle with the concept of TfL making "millions of pounds *extra* profit". I would also be grateful if you could point to the data that underpins your "interesting" [1] statement. You also need to be careful with words like "scam" which suggests deliberate intent to rip people off. however not fixing the OSI "bug" does seem to be deliberate. Nonsense. |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(12/12/12)
|
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(12/12/12)
On 13/12/2012 14:31, CJB wrote:
On Dec 13, 1:26 pm, "tim....." wrote: "Neil Williams" wrote in message ... Mizter T wrote: I (genuinely) totally disagree with you - I think this will eventually become one of the so-called 'killer applications' that pushes the contactless card payment method into the mainstream. (And FWIW, I haven't got a contactless card in my wallet either!) I have two, and it means I have to get my Oyster out of my wallet now, while I used to be able to just bang the whole wallet on the reader. But yes, I agree, this will become a "killer app" - particularly for non-London bus companies who don't wish to spend a fortune on the infrastructure to do a PAYG smartcard when the banks can do it for them. Is the bit that you are saving going to be significant? You're still going to have to have a reader in every bus. You still need to download the data each day to some central collation point. You need to provide some sort of intelligent ticketing - most rural bus companies offer discount returns. You'll need a "complaints" department to handle mis-reads. And if the bus service is curtailed - that is cut short of its destination - then when you board the bus behind you end up paying twice. That's a scam that TfL have been running for years. It nets them millions of pounds extra profit. Tourists are usually affected by this the most. CJB. No, if they have to change the bus' destination, thus curtailing its run, then you can simply ask the driver for a continuation ticket. That's how they do it in London, at least. --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(12/12/12)
On 13/12/2012 13:18, tim..... wrote:
wrote in message ... On 12/12/2012 22:37, tim..... wrote: "Mizter T" wrote in message ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027 The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. So With only XX percentage of customers having a "contactless" bank card (I don't have one, and I have 3 bank cards in my wallet). Only usable on the bus and no capping even to the one day buss pass. I predict a complete failure of this experiment tim I thought that banks were starting to redistribute cards with the contactless feature, however. ITYF that they started this about 2 years ago I still don't have one (not by choice) tim --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- Call your bank and ask for one. I did, and they were more than happy to issue me one. --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:43:45 +0000, Mizter T
wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027 The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. I think the previous thread contains a number of misconceptions as to how the system will work - both immediately and when it's rolled out fully - so if I get a mo I'll try and return to them. (Well, I should add that's *my* understanding as to how the system will work - which may be no understanding at all. In particular the notion that a PIN may need to be entered on the bus as is possible with other contactless transactions is rather far of the mark, because AIUI public transport / transit payments using contactless aka payWave cards are a rather different beast to regular contactless payments in retailers etc.) Do contactless credit cards store the journey like Oyster cards? Blub from TfL says that if an inspector gets on to check tickets, you just show your card in the same way as Oyster. |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
In message , at 07:44:36 on
Fri, 14 Dec 2012, David remarked: Do contactless credit cards store the journey like Oyster cards? I think they may store something, in order to trigger the "time to ask for a PIN" routine (for regular transactions). Blub from TfL says that if an inspector gets on to check tickets, you just show your card in the same way as Oyster. Do they attempt to read it? One possible mode would be for the inspector to download a "recent charges" history from the *bus* when he gets on, and checks the numbers in question against any paywave cards he's offered. -- Roland Perry |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(12/12/12)
On 14/12/2012 10:57, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 07:44:36 +0000, David wrote: Do contactless credit cards store the journey like Oyster cards? Blub from TfL says that if an inspector gets on to check tickets, you just show your card in the same way as Oyster. My guess would be that the contactless chip is written to with basic txn info when successfully presented to the bus reader. My understanding is that while 'banking information' is written back to the card by the reader (transaction counts, cumulative transaction value since last online PIN confirmation, etc), there is nothing on the card that is 'transport application' related. So no capping can be done (for example) on the card. Future systems may take the transaction record from the bus's ticket machine(ETM) or the Underground's gates, and then process them in the back office to determine the total amount to charge. So the 'taps' of the card on the ETM and gate are really just "I am here" events. It may be that the transaction with the card is only for a nominal amount - one of Visa / MasterCard allows a zero-value transaction, but I can't remember which. There is a completely different transaction model for transit / tranport use compared with 'normal' retail. There is a new generation of contactless bank cards coming along which will contain 'transit sectors', allowing the transit / transport application to record data on the card. But I have absolutely no idea how different trasnport operators and schemes might share this data area. Hope that helps Kevin |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
In message , at 10:57:09 on
Fri, 14 Dec 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: Do contactless credit cards store the journey like Oyster cards? Blub from TfL says that if an inspector gets on to check tickets, you just show your card in the same way as Oyster. My guess would be that the contactless chip is written to with basic txn info when successfully presented to the bus reader. VISA say "Only minimal account and information is stored on a Visa payWave card, which is no more than traditional magnetic stripe cards or contact chip cards". On the other hand, a Smartcard newsletter says: "Retailers will be able to use data stored inside Visa payWave payment card to deliver targeted messages at the point of sale. For example, a coffee chain can recognize an infrequent customer that has not been to the chain in over 30 days, and instantly print an offer at the bottom of the card receipt, encouraging the customer to return soon." Which implies that an almost unlimited amount of historic transaction information is sent with every wave. Which doesn't seem very practical (and how/when is the data for the latest transaction added to the card, that implies a 2-way data flow). I can't see any indication in a 200+ page technical spec I have for payWave that anything is written back to the card, and the flow chart for processing an EMV card suggests that the card can be removed from the RF field before the terminal has done any of its authentication activity - so at that stage it's unknown whether the transaction succeeded or not. There is, however, a "Transaction counter" on the card, although updating it is optional. I've asked about this on another specialist list and will report back if we can nail this down at all. -- Roland Perry |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
In message , at 11:18:02 on Fri, 14 Dec
2012, Kevin Ayton remarked: There is a new generation of contactless bank cards coming along which will contain 'transit sectors', allowing the transit / transport application to record data on the card. But I have absolutely no idea how different trasnport operators and schemes might share this data area. The "Transport Application" would presumably be owned by the transport authority (or possibly a clearing house) and only the owner would have access. So there might perhaps be a "TfL Transport Application" and later a "Stagecoach Transport Application", or possibly a less useful "SWT Trains Transport Application", or a more useful "ATOC Transport Application". What I'm not familiar with (and similarly for ITSO) is how many such applications might be able to co-exist on one card. -- Roland Perry |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option fromtomorrow (12/12/12)
On Dec 13, 11:07*pm, "
wrote: On 13/12/2012 14:31, CJB wrote: On Dec 13, 1:26 pm, "tim....." wrote: "Neil Williams" wrote in message ... Mizter T wrote: I (genuinely) totally disagree with you - I think this will eventually become one of the so-called 'killer applications' that pushes the contactless card payment method into the mainstream. (And FWIW, I haven't got a contactless card in my wallet either!) I have two, and it means I have to get my Oyster out of my wallet now, while I used to be able to just bang the whole wallet on the reader. But yes, I agree, this will become a "killer app" - particularly for non-London bus companies who don't wish to spend a fortune on the infrastructure to do a PAYG smartcard when the banks can do it for them. Is the bit that you are saving going to be significant? You're still going to have to have a reader in every bus. You still need to download the data each day to some central collation point. You need to provide some sort of intelligent ticketing - most rural bus companies offer discount returns. You'll need a "complaints" department to handle mis-reads. And if the bus service is curtailed - that is cut short of its destination - then when you board the bus behind you end up paying twice. That's a scam that TfL have been running for years. It nets them millions of pounds extra profit. Tourists are usually affected by this the most. *CJB. No, if they have to change the bus' destination, thus curtailing its run, then you can simply ask the driver for a continuation ticket. That's how they do it in London, at least. --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- That is not how they do it London. This is SUPPOSED to be the way, but most times the drivers simply can't be bothered - they just put a pre- recorded announcement on about a change of destination, flick the lights on and off when they get there, and tell everyone to get off and catch the next bus behind, So only knowing commuters ask for a ticket, or simply talk their way into getting onto the next bus for free. Everyone else incl. hapless tourists touch-in again and occur an extra fare. As I said this scam rakes in millions of extra revenue for TfL - all due to the laziness or indifference of the drivers. CJB |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
In message
, at 05:20:59 on Fri, 14 Dec 2012, CJB remarked: And if the bus service is curtailed - that is cut short of its destination - then when you board the bus behind you end up paying twice. That's a scam that TfL have been running for years. It nets them millions of pounds extra profit. Tourists are usually affected by this the most. *CJB. No, if they have to change the bus' destination, thus curtailing its run, then you can simply ask the driver for a continuation ticket. That's how they do it in London, at least. --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- That is not how they do it London. This is SUPPOSED to be the way, but most times the drivers simply can't be bothered - they just put a pre- recorded announcement on about a change of destination, flick the lights on and off when they get there, and tell everyone to get off and catch the next bus behind, So only knowing commuters ask for a ticket, or simply talk their way into getting onto the next bus for free. Wouldn't commuters have a season ticket anyway? Everyone else incl. hapless tourists touch-in again and occur an extra fare. Yes, they are ones who suffer, domestic 'tourists' as well as foreign ones. -- Roland Perry |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
wrote in message ... On 13/12/2012 13:18, tim..... wrote: wrote in message ... On 12/12/2012 22:37, tim..... wrote: "Mizter T" wrote in message ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027 The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR. So With only XX percentage of customers having a "contactless" bank card (I don't have one, and I have 3 bank cards in my wallet). Only usable on the bus and no capping even to the one day buss pass. I predict a complete failure of this experiment tim I thought that banks were starting to redistribute cards with the contactless feature, however. ITYF that they started this about 2 years ago I still don't have one (not by choice) tim --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- Call your bank and ask for one. I did, and they were more than happy to issue me one. I don't particularly want one I'm making the point that they have not yet become so commonplace that the subset of potential bus users who don't have an Oyster, will have one. tim |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 16:54:32 -0000, "tim....." wrote: however not fixing the OSI "bug" does seem to be deliberate. What "bug"? I am not aware of such a thing. A genuine stop at an OIS that looks like transfer generating two unresolved journeys causing them to receive two maximum charges and no capping tim |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... On 13/12/2012 16:54, tim..... wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote: On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 06:31:24 -0800 (PST), CJB wrote: And if the bus service is curtailed - that is cut short of its destination - then when you board the bus behind you end up paying twice. That's a scam that TfL have been running for years. It nets them millions of pounds extra profit. Tourists are usually affected by this the most. CJB. As the bus network requires £400m subsidy a year (figure quoted by a Mr Peter Hendy in a recent London Assembly session) I struggle with the concept of TfL making "millions of pounds *extra* profit". I would also be grateful if you could point to the data that underpins your "interesting" [1] statement. You also need to be careful with words like "scam" which suggests deliberate intent to rip people off. however not fixing the OSI "bug" does seem to be deliberate. Nonsense. well they haven't fixed it in 5 years, so ISTM that it must be deliberate choice not to. tim |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
CJB writes:
That is not how they do it London. This is SUPPOSED to be the way, but most times the drivers simply can't be bothered - they just put a pre- recorded announcement on about a change of destination, flick the lights on and off when they get there, and tell everyone to get off and catch the next bus behind, So only knowing commuters ask for a ticket, or simply talk their way into getting onto the next bus for free. Everyone else incl. hapless tourists touch-in again and occur an extra fare. As I said this scam rakes in millions of extra revenue for TfL - all due to the laziness or indifference of the drivers. CJB I have only ever come across a change of destination/going out of service in London. Thats the only time the bus has been driven away. Elsewhere the only time I have had to change buses is due to breakdown, so when the relief/following bus arrives you just swap over. |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
In message , at 11:37:03 on Fri, 14 Dec
2012, Roland Perry remarked: I've asked about this on another specialist list and will report back if we can nail this down at all. A question comes back: "when you swipe the Paywave card, does the terminal on the bus give you a receipt"? (A small thermal printed thing I suppose). Oyster cards don't, as we all know. -- Roland Perry |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 11:37:03 on Fri, 14 Dec 2012, Roland Perry remarked: I've asked about this on another specialist list and will report back if we can nail this down at all. A question comes back: "when you swipe the Paywave card, does the terminal on the bus give you a receipt"? (A small thermal printed thing I suppose). Oyster cards don't, as we all know. OOI what do national twirly passes do on London buses? Out in the sticks pax are given paper receipts, but I guess that's because they aren't flat fare [1] and there needs to be some proof that the driver has "claimed" the correct fare. tim [1] is there anywhere else in the county that runs a flat fare system across their network? |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(12/12/12)
Paul Corfield wrote on 14 December 2012 13:38:30 ...
Oh and while we're on this subject please tell me what fool proof system Paris or Berlin use that prevents exactly the same problem happening to tourists? Last time I used a bus in Paris I was turfed off a bus that was short turned. No one told me what I or anyone else had to do when the next bus turned up. In Paris, the standard single-journey "t+" ticket is valid for a journey made up of several bus segments, so presumably you are meant to validate it again on the next bus, as you would do if you were changing routes. I'm not sure whether the system would regard that as a breach of the no-break-of-journey rule on a single route. I suspect it just checks against the maximum 1.5 hour journey time. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow(12/12/12)
On 14/12/2012 23:30, Paul Corfield wrote:
I don't mind criticism provided it is rooted somewhere in reality and not drowning in unfounded hyperbole. In that case, I don't think Usenet is the right place for you :) -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
In message , at 19:33:07 on Fri, 14
Dec 2012, tim..... remarked: [1] is there anywhere else in the county that runs a flat fare system across their network? Nottingham City Transport is almost flat-fare. £1.70 single and £3.40 for an all-day ticket. But there are a few wrinkles, like group tickets that are also cheaper during school holidays, and the single fare for a night bus is £3. And they've recently invented an "Inner Zone" (approx 3 mile square) with a £2 day-return. -- Roland Perry |
London buses to offer contactless payment card option from tomorrow (12/12/12)
In message , at 21:02:56 on
Fri, 14 Dec 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: Official TfL words :- "You won't get a receipt (or paper bus ticket) when you use a contactless payment card; exactly the same as when you use an Oyster card. Each bus journey made using your contactless card will be shown as a separate transaction on your bank or card statement." When they extend the system to the tube, will the bank statement have a series of transactions for each trip - like an Oyster receipt? In other words an entry charge, a refund on exit and all those other entries generated when you do an OSI. And what about Pink validators, how will they be shown on your bill? Similar question about how your bill will present you information about reaching the daily cap. -- Roland Perry |
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