On 21/01/2013 12:56, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 06:30:28
on Mon, 21 Jan 2013, remarked:
There's a premium on the metro to Madrid airport, and a premium
"Airport Express" train in Oslo. Stockholm has the Arlanda Express,
Rome has the Leonardo Express and don't forget the Gatwick Express.

The Gatwick Express paralleling non-premium services of course.

As does Heathrow Express.

I'd dispute that - I'd say Heathrow Connect was quasi-premium - at
least, my take is that it certainly isn't "non-premium". Heathrow
airport is within Greater London, and if HC was genuinely non-premium,
it'd sit within the zonal system, and the Heathrow stations would be
within zone 6 (like West Drayton and Feltham stations). Instead, it
costs £5.60 just to get from Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow.

On 21/01/2013 12:58, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 06:30:29
on Mon, 21 Jan 2013, remarked:

Was Croydon Tramlink built to be a separate privately-operated line?

99 year concession wasn't it?

I don't know, I didn't follow the project (although I got caught up in
some of the roadworks circa 1995).

It was 99 years - though this is now moot as TfL purchased Tramtrack
Croydon Ltd in 2008.

Press releases...

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/static/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/7741.html

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/static/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/8733.html

On 21/01/2013 12:58, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 06:30:29
on Mon, 21 Jan 2013, remarked:
[...]
In any case this thread started discussing the situation where the normal
Piccadilly Line option is not available.

What they should do is put on extra "Connect" trains, and accept TfL
tickets. HEx is a red herring.

No paths for extra Connect trains (either on the GWML, or in the
Heathrow tunnels).

HEx isn't a red herring, as in the past TfL tickets have indeed been
accepted on it (at, I understand, a very significant cost to TfL).

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 16:46:51 on
Sun, 20 Jan 2013, remarked:

Premium (extra cost) services to airports are very much the norm.

Examples? No premiums to the last two European airports I've used.

There's a premium on the metro to Madrid airport, and a premium "Airport
Express" train in Oslo. Stockholm has the Arlanda Express, Rome has the
Leonardo Express and don't forget the Gatwick Express.

Casablanca.

It doesn't look like a premium fare to a Western European being no more than
you would pay for any trip of a similar distance in your capital city, but
it's about the same price as 100km on the rest of the Moroccan network.

tim

In message , at 13:44:06 on Mon, 21 Jan
2013, d remarked:
It's also a bit complicated because the objective of HEx is to create
a visible up-market service, for people who would never have used the
Piccadilly Line, and thus most of the passengers are abstracted from
the roads, an important public policy objective in West London.

How successfully are they abstracted from the roads?

Very much so, meeting the targets.

Have they actually measured a decrease in traffic on the heathrow spur then
or are they just assuming they everyone who travels on HeX would have gone
by taxi beforehand and would never have dreamt of taking the piccadilly line?

I would have expected all those studies to be done, big airports are
very sophisticated about such things (even if the front line minimum
wage staff give a different impression some of the time).
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 14:52:58 on Mon, 21 Jan
2013, Mizter T remarked:
In any case this thread started discussing the situation where the normal
Piccadilly Line option is not available.

What they should do is put on extra "Connect" trains, and accept TfL
tickets. HEx is a red herring.

No paths for extra Connect trains (either on the GWML, or in the
Heathrow tunnels).

So how is Crossrail going to work then? (And we are talking about
Sundays).

HEx isn't a red herring, as in the past TfL tickets have indeed been
accepted on it (at, I understand, a very significant cost to TfL).

One of the problems with that is people buying a "proper" HEx ticket (or
using a return half) feeling cheated and wanting their money back.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote on 21 January 2013 15:42:48 ...
In message , at 14:52:58 on Mon, 21 Jan
2013, Mizter T remarked:
In any case this thread started discussing the situation where the normal
Piccadilly Line option is not available.

What they should do is put on extra "Connect" trains, and accept TfL
tickets. HEx is a red herring.

No paths for extra Connect trains (either on the GWML, or in the
Heathrow tunnels).

So how is Crossrail going to work then? (And we are talking about
Sundays).

They are rebuilding Airport Junction. It was originally built for HEx
to/from the fast ("main") lines of the GMWL, and the access to the slow
("relief") lines for Connect was cobbled together on the cheap. It
involves down Connect trains running on the up HEx line on the flyover,
and up Connect trains running across the down Relief line on the level.
It's being replaced by a proper grade-separated junction with access
to/from both main and relief lines.

Quite what will happen at the airport isn't clear. Crossrail planning
has assumed 4 tph Crossrail and 4 tph HEx. Crossrail maps have always
just shown "Heathrow Airport". At one time, the plan was to replace
Connect and terminate at T4, which never seemed very likely. How can
Crossrail not serve T5 when it's the main terminal for the main British
airline? The map on the Crossrail website that shows TBM progress has
the Heathrow destination shown as "Heathrow Central".
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 15:36:27 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:44:06 on Mon, 21 Jan
I would have expected all those studies to be done, big airports are
very sophisticated about such things (even if the front line minimum
wage staff give a different impression some of the time).

I can't see BAA - or whatever its called this week - producing a report
telling their shareholders that they poured money into a white elephant.
What is needed is an indepedent report if it hasn't already been done.

B2003

In message , at 16:37:47 on Mon, 21 Jan
2013, d remarked:
I would have expected all those studies to be done, big airports are
very sophisticated about such things (even if the front line minimum
wage staff give a different impression some of the time).

I can't see BAA - or whatever its called this week - producing a report
telling their shareholders that they poured money into a white elephant.
What is needed is an indepedent report if it hasn't already been done.

That's what auditors are for. (Not that they always do a great job, but
in this case hundreds of millions are at stake).

In any event, the number of passengers by each mode will have been
independently surveyed, so all that BAA are doing is crunching the
numbers.
--
Roland Perry

On 21/01/2013 12:56, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 06:30:28
on Mon, 21 Jan 2013, remarked:
There's a premium on the metro to Madrid airport, and a premium
"Airport Express" train in Oslo. Stockholm has the Arlanda Express,
Rome has the Leonardo Express and don't forget the Gatwick Express.

The Gatwick Express paralleling non-premium services of course.

As does Heathrow Express.

What about Paris, Amsterdam, Brussels?

Paris has a RER station, a bit slow, but not especially expensive for
the distance. It doesn't have a fast train.

Brussels is very similar.

Does Brussels have some kind of airport-weighting on the fares on the
new line?

Amsterdam is on the main line, with a mixture of main line and suburban
trains. It's beyond the end of their metro. And while you can pay a
premium to use a "faster" train, in practice those faster trains aren't
that much quicker, so it's not worth it.

Vienna has the City Airport train with premium fares, and ordinary
trains which offer 24 h travel for less than a single on the CAT.

A key factor is probably whether the airport link is on a route to
somewhere else (like Gatwick or Schipol), or a dedicated line funded
without taxing Hard Working insert name of country Families (like
Heathrow).

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK