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Freedom Pass - eligibility?
All Council Tax payers who are pensioners living in London or surrounds are eligible for a Freedom Pass from age 60 (this may have been been raised to 62).
However who else is eligible? I ask this because I saw a group of 5 guys of about age 30'ish, who could only be described as East European and evidentially unemployed, sitting on a wall in Trafalgar Square. Around their necks they each had a cord and holder with a Freedom Pass inside. So are younger people eligible for a Freedom Pass? Are the unemployed or those on benefits also eligible? Are immigrants from the European Community eligible? All these extra people must be putting a huge financial burden on the Councils &/or TfL. CJB. |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
CJB wrote:
All Council Tax payers who are pensioners living in London or surrounds are eligible for a Freedom Pass from age 60 (this may have been been raised to 62). However who else is eligible? I ask this because I saw a group of 5 guys of about age 30'ish, who could only be described as East European and evidentially unemployed, sitting on a wall in Trafalgar Square. Around their necks they each had a cord and holder with a Freedom Pass inside. So are younger people eligible for a Freedom Pass? Are the unemployed or those on benefits also eligible? Are immigrants from the European Community eligible? All these extra people must be putting a huge financial burden on the Councils &/or TfL. I think there's a disabled version, as well as the better known oldie one. I think you have to be a London resident, but not necessarily a British national. The oldie version comes in two forms: at 60, you become eligible for a London-only free Oyster card (which costs £10), with the standard national bus pass plus 24-hours London Freedom pass becoming available at a rising age of roughly 62. |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 14:26:27 -0700 (PDT), CJB
wrote: So are younger people eligible for a Freedom Pass? Are the unemployed or those on benefits also eligible? Disabled, at any age. The pass would have a yellow edge, I think, rather than blue. Are immigrants from the European Community eligible? It's been called the European Union for a while now, and as we're in it ourselves someone can't really be an immigrant from it. Richard. |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
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Freedom Pass - eligibility?
On Thursday, 20 June 2013 22:26:27 UTC+1, CJB wrote:
All Council Tax payers who are pensioners living in London or surrounds are eligible for a Freedom Pass from age 60 (this may have been been raised to 62). However who else is eligible? I ask this because I saw a group of 5 guys of about age 30'ish, who could only be described as East European and evidentially unemployed, sitting on a wall in Trafalgar Square. Around their necks they each had a cord and holder with a Freedom Pass inside. So are younger people eligible for a Freedom Pass? Are the unemployed or those on benefits also eligible? Are immigrants from the European Community eligible? All these extra people must be putting a huge financial burden on the Councils &/or TfL. CJB. Checking the eligibility it seems that the guys were not disabled, nor were they 'elderly.' So I wonder how they got what were clearly Freedom Passes. CJB. |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
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Freedom Pass - eligibility?
On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 17:01:44 -0700 (PDT), CJB
wrote: Checking the eligibility it seems that the guys were not disabled, nor were they 'elderly.' So I wonder how they got what were clearly Freedom Passes. Ever worked for Atos? Richard. |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
In message
, at 16:54:42 on Thu, 20 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: the standard national bus pass plus 24-hours London Freedom pass becoming available at a rising age of roughly 62. If you became 60 today and were expecting a pass, you'd have to wait until you were almost 64 (6th March 2017). If you became 59 today, then you'd have to wait until you were almost 66 (6th March 2020). It's amazing how fast this eligibility is tapering away! -- Roland Perry |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 17:01:44 -0700, CJB wrote:
Checking the eligibility it seems that the guys were not disabled, nor were they 'elderly.' So I wonder how they got what were clearly Freedom Passes. Since you clearly had a long and in-detail conversation with them, in order to check the eligibility, what did they say when you asked them about how they'd obtained the passes? |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:54:42 on Thu, 20 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: the standard national bus pass plus 24-hours London Freedom pass becoming available at a rising age of roughly 62. If you became 60 today and were expecting a pass, you'd have to wait until you were almost 64 (6th March 2017). If you became 59 today, then you'd have to wait until you were almost 66 (6th March 2020). It's amazing how fast this eligibility is tapering away! But in London, your are eligible for the 60+ Oyster card as soon as you reach 60. |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 08:25:02 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: If you became 60 today and were expecting a pass, you'd have to wait until you were almost 64 (6th March 2017). If you became 59 today, then you'd have to wait until you were almost 66 (6th March 2020). It's amazing how fast this eligibility is tapering away! If it carries on receding like that, I'll get one when I'm 97. Richard. |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
The national scheme is linked to the women's retirement age. That is being increased in stages to be in line with the men's retirement age and then IIRC both increase to 67.
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Freedom Pass - eligibility?
wrote:
The national scheme is linked to the women's retirement age. That is being increased in stages to be in line with the men's retirement age and then IIRC both increase to 67. Yes, that's correct. |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
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Freedom Pass - eligibility?
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Freedom Pass - eligibility?
In message
, at 03:57:49 on Fri, 21 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: the standard national bus pass plus 24-hours London Freedom pass becoming available at a rising age of roughly 62. If you became 60 today and were expecting a pass, you'd have to wait until you were almost 64 (6th March 2017). If you became 59 today, then you'd have to wait until you were almost 66 (6th March 2020). It's amazing how fast this eligibility is tapering away! But in London, That's "living in London", not "travelling in London", of course. your are eligible for the 60+ Oyster card as soon as you reach 60. The National "Senior" railcard is the same (ie still 60). But at least you can live anywhere. -- Roland Perry |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
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Freedom Pass - eligibility?
On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 04:43:28 -0500,
wrote: In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: In message , at 18:07:44 on Fri, 21 Jun 2013, remarked: The national scheme is linked to the women's retirement age. That is being increased in stages to be in line with the men's retirement age and then IIRC both increase to 67. Yes, that's correct. at the moment. I would not be surprised to either see the national scheme scrapped altogether, or associated with some proof (via your tax return) that you have actually retired, at some point before 2017. How would my tax return show whether or not I've actually retired? I'm not even sure myself! Exactly. I now describe myself as retired, as I stopped working about 18 months ago. But I'm years away from drawing my state pension, and haven't touched any of my private pensions yet either. I'm not unemployed, as I have no interest in working, for myself or anyone else, and I've never drawn any state benefits. I know that when I fill in surveys, they don't have any classification that fits me, as they only seem to recognise 'retired' to mean someone who's drawing a pension. They just don't seem to understand the concept of someone who lives comfortably off their investments. |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 11:16:43 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 04:43:28 on Sat, 22 Jun 2013, remarked: I would not be surprised to either see the national scheme scrapped altogether, or associated with some proof (via your tax return) that you have actually retired, at some point before 2017. How would my tax return show whether or not I've actually retired? I'm not even sure myself! Any income from employment or self-employment. (Or perhaps, any "taxable income", which would give people their personal allowance as pocket money). But pensions are taxable income. |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote: In message , at 04:43:28 on Sat, 22 Jun 2013, remarked: I would not be surprised to either see the national scheme scrapped altogether, or associated with some proof (via your tax return) that you have actually retired, at some point before 2017. How would my tax return show whether or not I've actually retired? I'm not even sure myself! Any income from employment or self-employment. (Or perhaps, any "taxable income", which would give people their personal allowance as pocket money). Is being a councillor employment? Different bits of government seem to have different opinions. It doesn't have any hours for Child Tax Credit, for example, it disqualifies from JSA but it is taxed like employment income. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
In message , at 11:23:49 on
Sat, 22 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: I would not be surprised to either see the national scheme scrapped altogether, or associated with some proof (via your tax return) that you have actually retired, at some point before 2017. How would my tax return show whether or not I've actually retired? I'm not even sure myself! Any income from employment or self-employment. (Or perhaps, any "taxable income", which would give people their personal allowance as pocket money). But pensions are taxable income. Not in the sense of "income from employment". I recommend you read the HMR&C guidance on the matter. -- Roland Perry |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
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Freedom Pass - eligibility?
In message , at 11:21:00 on
Sat, 22 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: They just don't seem to understand the concept of someone who lives comfortably off their investments. It's called "independently wealthy" and several questionnaires do recognise the concept. -- Roland Perry |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote: In message , at 06:32:50 on Sat, 22 Jun 2013, remarked: I would not be surprised to either see the national scheme scrapped altogether, or associated with some proof (via your tax return) that you have actually retired, at some point before 2017. How would my tax return show whether or not I've actually retired? I'm not even sure myself! Any income from employment or self-employment. (Or perhaps, any "taxable income", which would give people their personal allowance as pocket money). Is being a councillor employment? Different bits of government seem to have different opinions. It doesn't have any hours for Child Tax Credit, for example, it disqualifies from JSA but it is taxed like employment income. I thought many councillors (Cambridge in particular) only claimed expenses. They aren't income. Cambridge councillors are paid the same as all other councillors, Basic Allowances which are the same for everyone and Special Responsibility Allowances for additional responsibilities. Although there is one element of Special Responsibility Allowance which one councillor is refusing to take at present for special reasons, they are paid automatically, with no element of claiming. The main Cambridge difference is that most councillors receive at least some Special Responsibility Allowance, especially opposition councillors, unlike in many Tory and Labour councils where very few opposition councillors get anything. That was the case when the City Council was Labour controlled too, so it's not entirely a party point. What's your salary (for want of a better term) from being a Councillor? The total allowances I receive are below the income tax threshold, even before that threshold was so generously increased at the instance of the Liberal Democrats in the Coalition government. The only councillors whose allowances might taken them over that threshold would be party group leaders and members of the executive who have substantial part-time work commitments. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
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Quote:
you will receive each week when you do claim it. I'm playing the same game myself! |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 13:32:07 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 11:23:49 on Sat, 22 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: I would not be surprised to either see the national scheme scrapped altogether, or associated with some proof (via your tax return) that you have actually retired, at some point before 2017. How would my tax return show whether or not I've actually retired? I'm not even sure myself! Any income from employment or self-employment. (Or perhaps, any "taxable income", which would give people their personal allowance as pocket money). But pensions are taxable income. Not in the sense of "income from employment". I recommend you read the HMR&C guidance on the matter. But didn't you suggest that the eligibility might be based on any "taxable income", which would include pensions? |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 17:17:45 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 08:39:16 on Sat, 22 Jun 2013, remarked: The total allowances I receive are below the income tax threshold Which I don't think should be enough to disqualify you in a hypothetical future system which tried to restrict the 'Twirly-card" to genuine retirees. I'm still confused by your definition of "genuine retirees". You seemed to suggest that it could be defined as people not receiving taxable income -- would you have an age limit as well? Or would you only include people not receiving "income from employment"? So you'd not allow a 70-year old part-time worker to get a twirly pass? |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 13:35:16 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 11:21:00 on Sat, 22 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: They just don't seem to understand the concept of someone who lives comfortably off their investments. It's called "independently wealthy" and several questionnaires do recognise the concept. Not the ones I seem to get. In any case, I wouldn't call myself wealthy, just that I have enough to generate enough dividend income to live on comfortably. |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
In message , at 12:04:48 on
Sun, 23 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: I would not be surprised to either see the national scheme scrapped altogether, or associated with some proof (via your tax return) that you have actually retired, at some point before 2017. How would my tax return show whether or not I've actually retired? I'm not even sure myself! Any income from employment or self-employment. (Or perhaps, any "taxable income", which would give people their personal allowance as pocket money). But pensions are taxable income. Not in the sense of "income from employment". I recommend you read the HMR&C guidance on the matter. But didn't you suggest that the eligibility might be based on any "taxable income", which would include pensions? "Taxable income from employment". Although there's always going to be layer upon layer of corner cases. Like how can you separate someone getting "unearned income" by continuing to play the stock market as an occupation, rather than simply as a way to manage their pension fund. Meanwhile, the Tax Credits people seem to think they can pay different amounts depending on the number of hours a week someone "works", which I've never thought was a particularly useful concept for freelancers. -- Roland Perry |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
In message , at 12:07:41 on
Sun, 23 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: I'm still confused by your definition of "genuine retirees". You seemed to suggest that it could be defined as people not receiving taxable income -- would you have an age limit as well? Or would you only include people not receiving "income from employment"? So you'd not allow a 70-year old part-time worker to get a twirly pass? The normal reason for proposing such restrictions is to avoid a person with a twirly card using it was a subsidised means to "commute to work". But if they only have a part-time job (which one can perhaps define by the amount of income they get from it) then it might strike a better balance than a 60yr-old merchant banker still working full time and earning £200k having the run of London for free. -- Roland Perry |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
In message , at 12:08:44 on
Sun, 23 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: They just don't seem to understand the concept of someone who lives comfortably off their investments. It's called "independently wealthy" and several questionnaires do recognise the concept. Not the ones I seem to get. They aren't common, but with means-testing making a comeback, maybe it will be seen more often. In any case, I wouldn't call myself wealthy, just that I have enough to generate enough dividend income to live on comfortably. That's what it means. In general terms, "wealthy" in these circumstances means "getting more income from investments etc than would qualify you for benefits". -- Roland Perry |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
In article ,
(Recliner) wrote: On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 17:17:45 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:39:16 on Sat, 22 Jun 2013, remarked: The total allowances I receive are below the income tax threshold Which I don't think should be enough to disqualify you in a hypothetical future system which tried to restrict the 'Twirly-card" to genuine retirees. I'm still confused by your definition of "genuine retirees". You seemed to suggest that it could be defined as people not receiving taxable income -- would you have an age limit as well? Or would you only include people not receiving "income from employment"? So you'd not allow a 70-year old part-time worker to get a twirly pass? It couldn't be "not receiving taxable income" because pensions are mostly taxable (there are exceptions - my mother had one tax free pension). -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:07:41 on Sun, 23 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: I'm still confused by your definition of "genuine retirees". You seemed to suggest that it could be defined as people not receiving taxable income -- would you have an age limit as well? Or would you only include people not receiving "income from employment"? So you'd not allow a 70-year old part-time worker to get a twirly pass? The normal reason for proposing such restrictions is to avoid a person with a twirly card using it was a subsidised means to "commute to work". But if they only have a part-time job (which one can perhaps define by the amount of income they get from it) then it might strike a better balance than a 60yr-old merchant banker still working full time and earning £200k having the run of London for free. It looks to me like you're dreaming up ever more complex rules that would cost more than they'd save. The example of a high-full time worker getting free public transport doesn't work very well, given that such a person probably doesn't make much use of pt. In particular, your banker probably lives outside London and commutes in using NR first class at peak times, and so probably would hardly use it (he probably uses taxis to get round town). Freedom cards are cheap to administer, but would be a nightmare in your scheme: they'd have to be renewed annually, with a check that someone hadn't slipped into or out of the wrong category. Who would do this (hint: not the post office clerk)? And what happens if someone gets into your excluded category during the year -- do they lose it retrospectively? It would also be politically unpopular, like all means tested benefits. There would be people who lost it unfairly, for sure, whom would kick up a fuss. They'd also not vote for the politician who proposed it. |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
In message
, at 08:34:58 on Sun, 23 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: Freedom cards are cheap to administer, but would be a nightmare in your scheme: they'd have to be renewed annually, with a check that someone hadn't slipped into or out of the wrong category. The Taxman, the tax credits man, and enormous numbers of people administering various benefits manage to do it. All it needs is the equivalent to the parental test of "does your child qualify for free school meals" which is one of those benefits above which are fine tuned day in and day out (and woe betide anyone whose child gets one more free meal than they are entitled to). -- Roland Perry |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
In message , at 07:56:10
on Sun, 23 Jun 2013, remarked: It couldn't be "not receiving taxable income" because pensions are mostly taxable That's why I mentioned [taxable] earned income. -- Roland Perry |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...
In message , at 12:07:41 on Sun, 23 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: I'm still confused by your definition of "genuine retirees". You seemed to suggest that it could be defined as people not receiving taxable income -- would you have an age limit as well? Or would you only include people not receiving "income from employment"? So you'd not allow a 70-year old part-time worker to get a twirly pass? The normal reason for proposing such restrictions is to avoid a person with a twirly card using it was a subsidised means to "commute to work". But if they only have a part-time job (which one can perhaps define by the amount of income they get from it) then it might strike a better balance than a 60yr-old merchant banker still working full time and earning £200k having the run of London for free. But then you could argue, why does a 60 year old banker who has taken early retirement with a large pension get free travel, when a 60 year old who is still working 40hrs a week on minimum wage gets nothing? Peter Smyth |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:34:58 on Sun, 23 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: Freedom cards are cheap to administer, but would be a nightmare in your scheme: they'd have to be renewed annually, with a check that someone hadn't slipped into or out of the wrong category. The Taxman, the tax credits man, and enormous numbers of people administering various benefits manage to do it. We need fewer, not more, of the "enormous numbers of people administering various benefits". |
Freedom Pass - eligibility?
"Peter Smyth" wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 12:07:41 on Sun, 23 Jun 2013, Recliner remarked: I'm still confused by your definition of "genuine retirees". You seemed to suggest that it could be defined as people not receiving taxable income -- would you have an age limit as well? Or would you only include people not receiving "income from employment"? So you'd not allow a 70-year old part-time worker to get a twirly pass? The normal reason for proposing such restrictions is to avoid a person with a twirly card using it was a subsidised means to "commute to work". But if they only have a part-time job (which one can perhaps define by the amount of income they get from it) then it might strike a better balance than a 60yr-old merchant banker still working full time and earning £200k having the run of London for free. But then you could argue, why does a 60 year old banker who has taken early retirement with a large pension get free travel, when a 60 year old who is still working 40hrs a week on minimum wage gets nothing? Exactly. Roland is using his value judgments to restrict universal benefits, without appreciating that not everyone shares his values. |
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