8.5% cut in central govt grant to TfL; suburban West Anglia trainsto be devolved to TfL control
 

"Robin9" wrote in message ...


'Stephen Furley[_2_ Wrote:
If the curve towards Kentish Town and St. Pancras hadn't been
obliterated
could any case have been made for a service via that route to somewhere
on
the Southern. South to East travel in London often seems to be poorly
catered for. That curve could not now be re-instated.

Which curve are you referring to? Scanning an old Ian Allen gazetteer,
it seems that once there were two leading off from between Upper Holloway
and Gospel Oak going towards Kentish Town. Are they both closed and
unrestorable?

Yes.

Long, long ago I occasionally travelled from Leyton Midland to St.
Pancras.
From Upper Holloway, we took the descending line which is still used by

freight trains. We came to a junction immediately prior to tunnels. One
tunnel lead to Kentish Town and St. Pancras and the other lead to the
Midland
Line going towards Cricklewood.

I've often wondered if the route towards St. Pancras is still navigable.
As, in order to maximise utilisation of the Thames Link route, several
improbable services have been suggested, it seems to me that a
Barking/Upper
Holloway/St Pancras International/South London service might not be a
bad idea.

The freight line leaves the route to Gospel Oak at Junction Road Junction,
and joins the route towards Cricklewood at Carlton Road Junction. There
used to be a triangle here with the third side leading to Kentish Town and
St. Pancras. I think the other two junctions were Engine Shed Junction and
Mortimer Street Junction.

The Barking service was cut back from St. Pancras to Kentish Town long ago;
I don't know when. At some time, probably in the late '70s or early '80s
the service was diverted into Gospel Oak, as a connection with the North
London was thought to be more useful than terminating at Kentish Town. The
third side of the triangle was lifted and filled in.

I'm not sure what the other route to Kentish town was used for; depot
access? I've only seen it on old maps.

I don't remember the triangular arrangement. That may have been before my
time. I seem to recall a straightforward junction. If the route towards Kentish
Town was filled in, can that be reversed or has the land been built on/put to
other use? Presumably the tunnel was not filled in even though, I imagine, the
entrances were bricked up.

8.5% cut in central govt grant to TfL; suburban West Anglia trainstobe devolved to TfL control
 

On 01/07/2013 18:09, Robin9 wrote:

'Stephen Furley[_2_ Wrote:
;137762']"Robin9" wrote in message
...


'Stephen Furley[_2_ Wrote:--
If the curve towards Kentish Town and St. Pancras hadn't been
obliterated
could any case have been made for a service via that route to
somewhere
on
the Southern. South to East travel in London often seems to be poorly
catered for. That curve could not now be re-instated.--
-
Which curve are you referring to? Scanning an old Ian Allen gazetteer,
it seems that once there were two leading off from between Upper
Holloway
and Gospel Oak going towards Kentish Town. Are they both closed and
unrestorable?-

Yes.
-
Long, long ago I occasionally travelled from Leyton Midland to St.
Pancras.
From Upper Holloway, we took the descending line which is still used
by-
-
freight trains. We came to a junction immediately prior to tunnels. One
tunnel lead to Kentish Town and St. Pancras and the other lead to the
Midland
Line going towards Cricklewood.-
-
I've often wondered if the route towards St. Pancras is still
navigable.
As, in order to maximise utilisation of the Thames Link route, several
improbable services have been suggested, it seems to me that a
Barking/Upper
Holloway/St Pancras International/South London service might not be a
bad idea.-

The freight line leaves the route to Gospel Oak at Junction Road
Junction,
and joins the route towards Cricklewood at Carlton Road Junction. There

used to be a triangle here with the third side leading to Kentish Town
and
St. Pancras. I think the other two junctions were Engine Shed Junction
and
Mortimer Street Junction.

The Barking service was cut back from St. Pancras to Kentish Town long
ago;
I don't know when. At some time, probably in the late '70s or early
'80s
the service was diverted into Gospel Oak, as a connection with the North

London was thought to be more useful than terminating at Kentish Town.
The
third side of the triangle was lifted and filled in.

I'm not sure what the other route to Kentish town was used for; depot
access? I've only seen it on old maps.

I don't remember the triangular arrangement. That may have been before
my
time. I seem to recall a straightforward junction. If the route towards
Kentish
Town was filled in, can that be reversed or has the land been built
on/put to
other use? Presumably the tunnel was not filled in even though, I
imagine, the
entrances were bricked up.


The line used by the Kentish Town - Barking trains ran across what is
now a builders depot to reach Mortiner Street junction. Reinstating the
route would split the depot in two, leaving half of it rail-locked, and
is probably not feasible. (The depot incorporates some of the former
Kentish Town engine shed.)

Incidentally there was a second route from Kentish Town eastwards. It
left the Midland line on its west side and then crossed it on a bridge
to reach a junction east of Gospel Oak. The route may still exist but
is useless for sering Thameslink! (The line was used mainly by St
Pancrasd - Tilbury boat trains.)

8.5% cut in central govt grant to TfL; suburban West Anglia trainsto be devolved to TfL control
 

"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message
eb.com...

On 01/07/2013 18:09, Robin9 wrote:

I don't remember the triangular arrangement. That may have been before
my
time. I seem to recall a straightforward junction. If the route towards
Kentish
Town was filled in, can that be reversed or has the land been built
on/put to
other use? Presumably the tunnel was not filled in even though, I
imagine, the
entrances were bricked up.


The line used by the Kentish Town - Barking trains ran across what is now a
builders depot to reach Mortiner Street junction. Reinstating the route
would split the depot in two, leaving half of it rail-locked, and is
probably not feasible. (The depot incorporates some of the former Kentish
Town engine shed.)

I'm somewhat puzzled by what Robin9 wrote. There doesn't seem to have been
any tunnel on the closed section of route. Was he possibly thinking of the
other route to St. Pancras? I don't know if there was a tunnel on that.

The route taken by the Kentish Town - Barking trains can be clearly seen on
Google Earth, though it's clearer on the 2002 images than on the latest
ones. While correct, your description of the area as a 'builders depot'
could be somewhat misleading to somebody who hasn't seen it. It suggests a
small area of land, with something like a couple of JCBs and a concrete
mixer on it. Murphy's yard is huge, and has some very large plant on it.
It would be difficult to find somewhere to re-locate that. Pre-Olympics
Stratford might have been a possibility, but not now.

The missing section of line was very short, but tightly curved. If I
remember correctly it was in shallow cutting, which has now been filled in.
Google Earth shows several strange looking buildings on the East side of the
line, including a large square one which seems to have one corner cut, where
the line would have been. There's also a small square building which I
think may have been built partly on the alignment of the trackbed.

I cannot see Murphy wanting to move; it might be possible to excavate the
cutting to a greater depth (give the contract to Murphy?) and then cover it
over to restore access to the South Eastern part of the site, but it would
be very expensive, and probably very unpopular.

There's also the problem that with today's fragmented railway the Thameslink
and Goblin routes are operated by two completely different companies. I
don't know if there would be enough demand to make say a Southend to
somewhere on the Southern viable, but if the route had remained in a state
where it could have been re-instated, and Network South East still existed
then it might have been worth investigating the possibility. if the South
Tottenham - Tottenham Hale curve was also re-instated then it would have
been possible for Thameslink to serve Stanstead in addition to Luton and
Gatwick. Again, I don't know if the demand would have made it worthwhile.

Incidentally there was a second route from Kentish Town eastwards. It left
the Midland line on its west side and then crossed it on a bridge to reach
a junction east of Gospel Oak. The route may still exist but is useless
for sering Thameslink! (The line was used mainly by St Pancrasd - Tilbury
boat trains.)

I can't remember exactly where this route was; I think it's long gone, but
if it still existed why couldn't it have served Thameslink if it went to
Kentish Town?

8.5% cut in central govt grant to TfL; suburban West Anglia trainstobe devolved to TfL control
 

On 03/07/2013 01:28, Stephen Furley wrote:


"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message
eb.com...

On 01/07/2013 18:09, Robin9 wrote:

I don't remember the triangular arrangement. That may have been before
my
time. I seem to recall a straightforward junction. If the route towards
Kentish
Town was filled in, can that be reversed or has the land been built
on/put to
other use? Presumably the tunnel was not filled in even though, I
imagine, the
entrances were bricked up.


The line used by the Kentish Town - Barking trains ran across what is
now a builders depot to reach Mortiner Street junction. Reinstating
the route would split the depot in two, leaving half of it
rail-locked, and is probably not feasible. (The depot incorporates
some of the former Kentish Town engine shed.)

I'm somewhat puzzled by what Robin9 wrote. There doesn't seem to have
been any tunnel on the closed section of route. Was he possibly
thinking of the other route to St. Pancras? I don't know if there was a
tunnel on that.

The route taken by the Kentish Town - Barking trains can be clearly seen
on Google Earth, though it's clearer on the 2002 images than on the
latest ones. While correct, your description of the area as a 'builders
depot' could be somewhat misleading to somebody who hasn't seen it. It
suggests a small area of land, with something like a couple of JCBs and
a concrete mixer on it. Murphy's yard is huge, and has some very large
plant on it. It would be difficult to find somewhere to re-locate that.
Pre-Olympics Stratford might have been a possibility, but not now.

The missing section of line was very short, but tightly curved. If I
remember correctly it was in shallow cutting, which has now been filled
in. Google Earth shows several strange looking buildings on the East
side of the line, including a large square one which seems to have one
corner cut, where the line would have been. There's also a small square
building which I think may have been built partly on the alignment of
the trackbed.

I cannot see Murphy wanting to move; it might be possible to excavate
the cutting to a greater depth (give the contract to Murphy?) and then
cover it over to restore access to the South Eastern part of the site,
but it would be very expensive, and probably very unpopular.

There's also the problem that with today's fragmented railway the
Thameslink and Goblin routes are operated by two completely different
companies. I don't know if there would be enough demand to make say a
Southend to somewhere on the Southern viable, but if the route had
remained in a state where it could have been re-instated, and Network
South East still existed then it might have been worth investigating the
possibility. if the South Tottenham - Tottenham Hale curve was also
re-instated then it would have been possible for Thameslink to serve
Stanstead in addition to Luton and Gatwick. Again, I don't know if the
demand would have made it worthwhile.

Incidentally there was a second route from Kentish Town eastwards. It
left the Midland line on its west side and then crossed it on a bridge
to reach a junction east of Gospel Oak. The route may still exist but
is useless for sering Thameslink! (The line was used mainly by St
Pancrasd - Tilbury boat trains.)

I can't remember exactly where this route was; I think it's long gone,
but if it still existed why couldn't it have served Thameslink if it
went to Kentish Town?

Using the route as it was, all trains between TL and GOBLIN would have
to cross the line into St Pancras on the level which seems unacceptable.

8.5% cut in central govt grant to TfL; suburban West Anglia trainsto be devolved to TfL control
 

"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message
eb.com...

Using the route as it was, all trains between TL and GOBLIN would have to
cross the line into St Pancras on the level which seems unacceptable.

I see, thank you. Do you know when, and why, the St. Pancras boat trains
ended?

8.5% cut in central govt grant to TfL; suburban West Anglia trainsto be devolved to TfL control
 

In article ,
(Stephen Furley) wrote:

"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message
eb.com...

Using the route as it was, all trains between TL and GOBLIN would have to
cross the line into St Pancras on the level which seems unacceptable.

I see, thank you. Do you know when, and why, the St. Pancras boat trains
ended?

Why? Lack of boats I presume. I do have a vague recollection of a trip to
see my parents off at Tilbury on a boat in 1960 but think we got a train
from Fenchurch Street.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

8.5% cut in central govt grant to TfL; suburban West Anglia trainsto be de
 

In message , at 18:41:21 on
Thu, 4 Jul 2013, Paul Corfield remarked:
Quite why a sign and "straight ahead" arrow has not been shown on the
sign which points you to the stairs I don't know.

Often this sort of situation (and not especially rail-related) is
because they don't actually want people to use the lifts (they'll wear
out faster, and people will complain if they break), the installation
being merely to tick a box on a form somewhere. A lot of cycling
"facilities" are in the same category.

I hardly think TfL and LOROL would have gone to the time and trouble
of seeking Access for All funding in order to install lifts so no one
can use them. There is a pretty obvious programme of improving
disabled access on the Overground given the number of stations that
have received funding and had work done. It's pretty clear that people
value having easier access at railway stations and on to trains just
as they do with low floor buses.

If the value that reflects upon TfL/LOROL is mainly to do with getting
more stations having their boxes ticked, that doesn't necessarily
percolate through to getting those facilities used.

And if the money is there, people will apply for it. Keeps the people
applying, and issuing, the money in a job.

I do not think cycling facilities are comparable. The big issue with
cycling facilities, by which I assume you mean racks and lockers, is
whether they are in a safe position with some level of security
coverage. The biggest dread with cycling is returning to where you
parked your bike and finding it has disappeared.

I was thinking mainly about various schemes for cycle lanes, where the
major motivation is often "we need to add another mile of cycle lanes"
whether or not they are of any practical use. And sometimes they can
even be counter productive.
--
Roland Perry

8.5% cut in central govt grant to TfL; suburban West Anglia trainsto be de
 

In message , at 21:08:54 on
Thu, 4 Jul 2013, Paul Corfield remarked:

Well done for being more cynical than me and that takes some doing!

There is plenty of practical pressure from commuters, older people,
parents with young kids and those in wheelchairs who would like to use
the rail network with less hassle than they currently encounter. I
have yet to see lifts or ramps anywhere on LU, Overground or DLR
rotting away through underuse. Usually there are queues of people
waiting to use the facilities!

Getting back to the original question, they do need adequate signage.

Every time I go to KX/StP (tube) I end up helping direct someone who
finds the Byzantine system of lifts and corridors there too much to cope
with. Plot a stepless route from the Circle to the Victoria Line...

And if the money is there, people will apply for it. Keeps the people
applying, and issuing, the money in a job.

So the Roland Perry solution is what exactly?

It's really difficult. Over the past decade the competition for funding
in the charitable sector has spiralled out of control, to the extent
that many charities have as their prime driving force "getting money
in". Of course they can't survive without funds, but it has often come
to obscure the 'good cause' they were originally set up for.

The same effect has permeated large parts of the public sector.

I'm making an assumption that you are reasonably fit and able bodied.

You must have missed the posting I used to make about 'getting across
London stepless'. That was a result of back problems (now OK fingers
crossed) and lugging 50Kg of airline baggage.

Maybe one day you won't be and then you may view these facilities as
something beneficial.

I do,
--
Roland Perry

You can see the tunnels when you travel between Upper Holloway and
Gospel Oak, immediately after the line crosses Highgate Road.