In message , at 11:45:59
on Sat, 5 Oct 2013, remarked:
Unlike other rail services in Britain the line is run on a concession
service, rather than under a complex franchise structure. This means
TfL taking some of the financial risk of running the line, giving them
an incentive to make sure it works well.

Unless so failing that they fall into cap-and-collar, why is this any
different to a classic franchise?

Cap and collar is not total. There is still gain and pain.

The quote above says TfL take "some of the risk", so where's the rest of
the risk if not inside LOROL?
--
Roland Perry

In message of Sat, 5 Oct
2013 23:29:26 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield
writes
On Sat, 5 Oct 2013 18:19:34 +0100, eastender
wrote:

On 2013-10-05 14:27:00 +0000, Recliner said:

Stations with an interchange, such as Highbury & Islington in the
north-east and Canada Water in the south-east, became more
important. Each weekday around 60,000 people travel to and from Highbury &
Islington on Overground services.

Indeed Highbury is a busy place but unlike Canada Water it's an old
station that should have been modernised given the key interchange with
the Victoria Line. At present, the down escalator is out of service too.

To be fair a lot of money has been spent to free up space at ticket
hall level at Highbury and the circulation space is a vast improvement
on what went before. I agree the link to the Vic Line / FCC is now
inadequate but it will take a lot of money to add extra escalators,

I don't find signage brilliant either. It includes corridor T junctions
with signage absent until the turn is made. There is probably a lack of
height for clearer signage. OTOH, I think there has been some
improvement in platform displays towards Moorgate.

lifts and wider corridor links. With the proposal to add weekend and
evening services on the GN line into Moorgate in the new TSGN
franchise there will be even more pressure on this interchange.

What proposal? With Google, I managed to find TSGN = Thameslink Great
Northern, but nothing to amplify Paul's allusion. Searching for Moorgate
in a recent consultation document showed nothing relevant.

[At Moorgate, on weekdays until about 2200, signs "Trains to Stevenage"
give access to the Northern Line Ticket Hall from Northern Line
platforms using 2 escalators, rather than 20 steps and an escalator.]


Canada Water is hardly an exemplar of capacity either. Ticket hall to
street is all stairs (ignoring the MIP lift) when escalators are
really needed. The escalator capacity on the Overground / Jubilee

When have you found the stairs inadequate? 35 is a bit long. http://www
..directenquiries.com/stationDiagram.aspx?tab=StationPlanRoute&did=0071-0
011693%2b0071-0025015_P2H&did1=0071-0011687_H2E&did2=0071-0011687_OUT&ci
d=0071-1506208&cid1=0071-1506191&cid2=0071-1506192&fid=0071-0025029&eo=&
xo=&lpid=4284&sr=Y&sh=Y&level=1&dir=r&companyid=74 237&company=Canada%20W
ater
I find it more irritating that drug abuse is given as a reason for
police requesting permanent closure of toilets in the bus station. OTOH,
I think RADAR key access to accessible toilets is still there.

interchange link is overwhelmed off peak - I dread to think how awful
it is in the peak with trains tipping people out every 3-4 minutes. At
some point that needs a radical rethink as it was scoped for the old
East London service and what's there now is a different thing
altogether.

--
Walter Briscoe

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 20:28:37 +0100, Arthur Figgis
wrote:

On 05/10/2013 15:33, Roland Perry wrote:
In message

, at 09:27:00 on Sat, 5 Oct 2013, Recliner
remarked:
Unlike other rail services in Britain the line is run on a concession
service, rather than under a complex franchise structure. This means
TfL taking some of the financial risk of running the line, giving them
an incentive to make sure it works well.

Unless so failing that they fall into cap-and-collar, why is this any
different to a classic franchise?

Depends how far it goes, but a concession can be about just running the
required trains to meet performance targets (which contractors are good
at), rather than trying to second-guess government transport, fares and
economic policy over a multi-year period (which they aren't good at).

That is precisely the point. By TfL taking revenue risk it removes the
risk that the franchisee has to price into their bid. This frees up
cash to spend on other things.

Revenue is way ahead of budget on the Overground anyway - largely as a
result of burgeoning patronage. I think it will be a tougher task on
the West Anglia lines -

I agree

The orbital routes on the overground are a unique proposition. You can
increase users by encouraging people to use it as a connecting route for
part of a longer journey, instead of the underground.

You can't do that with radial routes. You either want to go to Chingford or
you don't

tim

tim...... wrote:

The orbital routes on the overground are a unique proposition. You
can increase users by encouraging people to use it as a connecting
route for part of a longer journey, instead of the underground.

You can't do that with radial routes. You either want to go to
Chingford or you don't

You can to some extent. Many people have more than one line within
walking distance. A better service on the Chingford line may attract
some passengers who currently prefer to use the Central line to
Woodford or Snaresbrook instead.

Peter Smyth

Peter Smyth wrote:

The orbital routes on the overground are a unique proposition. You
can increase users by encouraging people to use it as a connecting
route for part of a longer journey, instead of the underground.

You can't do that with radial routes. You either want to go to
Chingford or you don't

You can to some extent. Many people have more than one line within
walking distance. A better service on the Chingford line may attract
some passengers who currently prefer to use the Central line to
Woodford or Snaresbrook instead.

Plus some attractions are interchangeable. Chingford station is within
walking distance of a good chunk of Epping Forest and on a day like today it
can attract afternoon out traffic. Ditto any number of shopping centres,
good restaurants and so on.

--
My blog: http://adf.ly/4hi4c

On 2013-10-05 22:29:26 +0000, Paul Corfield said:

To be fair a lot of money has been spent to free up space at ticket
hall level at Highbury and the circulation space is a vast improvement
on what went before. I agree the link to the Vic Line / FCC is now
inadequate but it will take a lot of money to add extra escalators,
lifts and wider corridor links. With the proposal to add weekend and
evening services on the GN line into Moorgate in the new TSGN
franchise there will be even more pressure on this interchange.

Yes, opening up the fron of the station is good but as you say it's the
interchange that's the problem - on Friday I was trying to get down to
the Vic amid two train loads arriving at the same time on the
Overground.

Canada Water is hardly an exemplar of capacity either. Ticket hall to
street is all stairs (ignoring the MIP lift) when escalators are
really needed. The escalator capacity on the Overground / Jubilee
interchange link is overwhelmed off peak - I dread to think how awful
it is in the peak with trains tipping people out every 3-4 minutes. At
some point that needs a radical rethink as it was scoped for the old
East London service and what's there now is a different thing
altogether.

I've not been to the surface at Canda Water - is there anything up
there? But the station does seem a lot more spacious. The problem there
is the erratic Jubilee line in my experience.

E.

On 2013\10\06 15:12, Paul Corfield wrote:

The
other lines via Seven Sisters should do much better if both Cheshunt
and Enfield services are lifted to x15 giving a 7-8 minutes service
south of Edmonton Green.

Annual passenger numbers at Theobalds Grove, Turkey Street and Southbury
are comparable to Roding Valley, Chigwell and Grange Hill, whereas Bush
Hill Park (surprisingly) and especially Enfield Town do a lot better.
IMO a ten minute service from Enfield Town to Liverpool Street, along
with a twenty minute service from Cheshunt to Edmonton Green and then
non-stop to Seven Sisters makes more sense, and would only use 11 trains
instead of 12. I am guessing that the single track slip from Seven
Sisters to South Tottenham can be used to reverse a train.

On 2013\10\05 21:47, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2013\10\05 15:27, Recliner wrote:
From:

http://www.economist.com/news/britai...s-commute-loop

Already TfL has announced that it will take over the
West Anglia route under a similar concession scheme, running commuter
trains from Liverpool Street from 2015.

Why haven't they put the West Anglia lines on the tube map yet, in order
to drum up business before they take it over? The Jubilee extension was
on the tube map at least 5 years before it opened.

Surely it's in TfL's interest to do nothing to drum up business for its new
WA routes before it gets and upgrades them? That way, the growth in
ridership under TfL's stewardship will look so much better.

So TfL's job is to look as if they are serving Londoners rather than to
actually serve Londoners? Sadly you may be right.

On 2013\10\06 17:16, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2013\10\06 15:12, Paul Corfield wrote:

The
other lines via Seven Sisters should do much better if both Cheshunt
and Enfield services are lifted to x15 giving a 7-8 minutes service
south of Edmonton Green.

Annual passenger numbers at Theobalds Grove, Turkey Street and Southbury
are comparable to Roding Valley, Chigwell and Grange Hill, whereas Bush
Hill Park (surprisingly) and especially Enfield Town do a lot better.
IMO a ten minute service from Enfield Town to Liverpool Street, along
with a twenty minute service from Cheshunt to Edmonton Green and then
non-stop to Seven Sisters makes more sense, and would only use 11 trains
instead of 12. I am guessing that the single track slip from Seven
Sisters to South Tottenham can be used to reverse a train.

Hang on, wasn't the legendary "Jazz" service a ten minute frequency? So
there's a name for the line and an angle for publicity, if they go for a
ten minute service to Enfield.

In message of Sun, 6 Oct
2013 15:15:48 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield
writes
On Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:07:27 +0100, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

What proposal? With Google, I managed to find TSGN = Thameslink Great
Northern, but nothing to amplify Paul's allusion. Searching for Moorgate

That should have been Thameslink Southern Great Northern. ;(

in a recent consultation document showed nothing relevant.

The proposal that is included in the ITT documentation and
consultation results published on the DfT website last week. Just have
a search for DfT Press Releases to see what is proposed for Thameslink
and Great Northern services.

That did not help.


There is also an article on the London Reconnections website.

I found a link to https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/consultat
ion-on-the-combined-thameslink-southern-and-great-northern-franchise,
where there are 2 links to the same document.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...chment_data/fi
le/245205/consultation-responses-tsgn.pdf
and
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...chment_data/fi
le/245203/consultation-responses-tsgn.doc

I searched the latter for Moorgate and found some noise in addition to:
p.44 As part of the TSGN franchise requirements ... There will be
additional services into Moorgate at busy times, evenings and weekends.
p.45 4.87 From December 2015, trains running via Finsbury Park will no
longer be diverted to King's Cross at certain times but terminate at
Moorgate ...
I saw 2 potential reasons: increased social activity in the Old Street
ares; Overground and Crossrail interchange. The Overground already seems
overloaded at Highbury and Islington; after 2118, an extra Crossrail
interchange may well be useful.
OTOH, I can't understand proposals to send a few trains to St Pancras
International (SPI), rather than King's Cross, given the slow
interchange between SPI and London Underground.

I did not penetrate documents as far as finding proposed service
intervals; the current Moorgate 10' service is ineffective for casual
users. Putting the Moorgate - Finsbury Park link back on the Tube map
might be helpful - it was probably there when that service was an
isolated Northern Line service before the 1975 disaster. http://en.wiki
pedia.org/wiki/Moorgate_tube_crash - similar considerations apply to
Farringdon - Blackfriars.
--
Walter Briscoe