For me, one of the most useful things I was expecting Oyster to offer was
the immediate purchase from home of a one day travelcard.

It seems that the system can't offer either of those aspects. You can't
immediately purchase anything from the website - it takes slightly less
time than a paper cheque would to clear before you get the goods. Secondly:
You can't actually buy one day travelcards!

Why can't the system let me use one day travelcards? These are pretty much
the only form of ticket I ever use. It could be quite easy. It could simply
modify the pre-pay paradigm to assess whether your day's worth of pre-pay
fits within or exceeds the cost of a one-day travelcard (off peak or peak,
depending on time of first use) and convert the day's usage to a travelcard
and thus plateau out at the point of charging for the maximum of the
relevant travelcard used for journeys actually taken.

As it is, helped by the insane methodology of bus charging, whereby if I
wanted to go from a to b, involving 20 changes of bus, I'd be up for 20 bus
fares (unlike the tube, which simply charges a fixed extortionate amount
for getting from expensive place a to equally expensive place b). With
pre-pay, it would be far too easy to rack up a day's worth of travelling
that far exceeds the equivalent cost of a Caxton-press printed papyrus
off-peak one day travelcard ticket of olde.
--
Ian Tindale

Ian Tindale wrote:
For me, one of the most useful things I was expecting Oyster to offer was
the immediate purchase from home of a one day travelcard.

It seems that the system can't offer either of those aspects. You can't
immediately purchase anything from the website - it takes slightly less
time than a paper cheque would to clear before you get the goods. Secondly:
You can't actually buy one day travelcards!

Why can't the system let me use one day travelcards? These are pretty much
the only form of ticket I ever use. It could be quite easy. It could simply
modify the pre-pay paradigm to assess whether your day's worth of pre-pay
fits within or exceeds the cost of a one-day travelcard (off peak or peak,
depending on time of first use) and convert the day's usage to a travelcard
and thus plateau out at the point of charging for the maximum of the
relevant travelcard used for journeys actually taken.

As it is, helped by the insane methodology of bus charging, whereby if I
wanted to go from a to b, involving 20 changes of bus, I'd be up for 20 bus
fares (unlike the tube, which simply charges a fixed extortionate amount
for getting from expensive place a to equally expensive place b). With
pre-pay, it would be far too easy to rack up a day's worth of travelling
that far exceeds the equivalent cost of a Caxton-press printed papyrus
off-peak one day travelcard ticket of olde.

You need to do a Google search on this newsgroup before ranting - try
Oyster and "Day Travelcard", or better yet, "price capping". Price
capping does exactly what you asked and should be coming online sometime
next month.

Dave Arquati wrote:

You need to do a Google search on this newsgroup before ranting - try
Oyster and "Day Travelcard", or better yet, "price capping". Price
capping does exactly what you asked and should be coming online sometime
next month.

I did do a google search. Then I ranted. In that order. I searched for the
quoted title of this post and found nothing (although you'd find this
thread now). Should've broken it down into components I suppose. The term
"price capping" is not something I would've searched for, as it's not a
phrase I would have used in association with this topic - this is the first
time I've heard it used. Sounds hopeful though. Onward March.

I wonder what the rules will say about passing one day travelcards among
people in the same sense that you can pass a pre-pay oyster between people
legitimately now. In other words, if ten of you turn up at the ticket gates
and decide, now, that you'll all use the one pre-pay oyster card in
someones possession, that's perfectly legit, and the gate staff must surely
smile on that.

If however, the one day travelcard (or hatting, or whatever you called it,
no, it wasn't so posh - capping, yes, that's it) mechanism were in place,
after a few people had entered, you're all now effectively sharing a one
day travelcard for the rest of the day. Or is there some restriction on
multiple entries that might have to swing into place when this bonneting
scheme occurs?

--
Ian Tindale

Ian Tindale wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:


You need to do a Google search on this newsgroup before ranting - try
Oyster and "Day Travelcard", or better yet, "price capping". Price
capping does exactly what you asked and should be coming online sometime
next month.


I did do a google search. Then I ranted. In that order. I searched for the
quoted title of this post and found nothing (although you'd find this
thread now). Should've broken it down into components I suppose. The term
"price capping" is not something I would've searched for, as it's not a
phrase I would have used in association with this topic - this is the first
time I've heard it used. Sounds hopeful though. Onward March.

My apologies then. I'm surprised searching for Oyster in combination
with travelcards doesn't work well though; there have been an awful lot
of thread on it in the last two months!

I wonder what the rules will say about passing one day travelcards among
people in the same sense that you can pass a pre-pay oyster between people
legitimately now. In other words, if ten of you turn up at the ticket gates
and decide, now, that you'll all use the one pre-pay oyster card in
someones possession, that's perfectly legit, and the gate staff must surely
smile on that.

I don't think you can go through the gate and pass your Oyster back to
other people to use it - the card expects an exit after an entry. You
can't do that with one-day travelcards either - there's some time delay
before being able to pass it through a gate again. However, like a
travelcard, you can give it to someone else *after* your journey has
finished.


If however, the one day travelcard (or hatting, or whatever you called it,
no, it wasn't so posh - capping, yes, that's it) mechanism were in place,
after a few people had entered, you're all now effectively sharing a one
day travelcard for the rest of the day. Or is there some restriction on
multiple entries that might have to swing into place when this bonneting
scheme occurs?

See above. Like I said, there's essentially already a restriction on
multiple entries, and I that remains for Oyster - not specifically, but
just due to the way the system works.

In message , Dave Arquati
writes

I don't think you can go through the gate and pass your Oyster back to
other people to use it - the card expects an exit after an entry. You
can't do that with one-day travelcards either - there's some time delay
before being able to pass it through a gate again. However, like a
travelcard, you can give it to someone else *after* your journey has
finished.

I believe that is true if you have Pre-Pay (only) on the Oyster but not
if the Oyster also has a season ticket on it. I don't think you can give
a travelcard to someone else to use. According to the TfL "Conditions of
Carriage" ...

6.3 Use of tickets. Our tickets can only be used by the person
they were bought for. They must not be resold or given away for
further use. Doing this automatically cancels them and is an
offence under our Byelaws and the Public Service Vehicle
(Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers)
Regulations 1990. This rule does not apply to Carnet or bus
‘Saver’ tickets.
--
Paul Terry

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 10:58:38 +0000, Ian Tindale wrote:

Dave Arquati wrote:

You need to do a Google search on this newsgroup before ranting - try
Oyster and "Day Travelcard", or better yet, "price capping". Price
capping does exactly what you asked and should be coming online sometime
next month.

I did do a google search. Then I ranted. In that order. I searched for the
quoted title of this post and found nothing (although you'd find this
thread now). Should've broken it down into components I suppose. The term
"price capping" is not something I would've searched for, as it's not a
phrase I would have used in association with this topic - this is the first
time I've heard it used. Sounds hopeful though. Onward March.

But capping will work against the LT Card price and not One Day
Travelcards. It cannot work to ODTC prices and validity because there
would have to be validators / gates at every National Rail station in
the zonal area. These don't exist so therefore if you lived in an area
exclusively served by NR trains you would have no way in which to
register your trips and therefore contribute to your daily total of
rides that would be capped at the One Day Travelcard price.

It took me a long time to "click" that the LT Card price would be
trigger for the daily cap and not the One Day Travelcard.

I wonder what the rules will say about passing one day travelcards among
people in the same sense that you can pass a pre-pay oyster between people
legitimately now. In other words, if ten of you turn up at the ticket gates
and decide, now, that you'll all use the one pre-pay oyster card in
someones possession, that's perfectly legit, and the gate staff must surely
smile on that.

But you misunderstand the transferability rules for pre-pay. You cannot
have two people travelling on one card at the same time. You can give
the card to someone for them to make trips but the payment deducted from
the card applies to their travel only. If you wished to travel with them
then you would either (a) need your own pre-pay card or (b) buy a normal
ticket from a machine using the pre-pay value as a means of payment or
(c) buy a ticket with cash.

If however, the one day travelcard (or hatting, or whatever you called it,
no, it wasn't so posh - capping, yes, that's it) mechanism were in place,
after a few people had entered, you're all now effectively sharing a one
day travelcard for the rest of the day. Or is there some restriction on
multiple entries that might have to swing into place when this bonneting
scheme occurs?

You cannot transfer a One Day Travelcard between users. Neither can you
transfer an Oyster card that has both Travelcard and Pre-Pay validity on
it. Therefore your example is not permitted - each traveller would have
to have an individual card.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:
But capping will work against the LT Card price and not One Day
Travelcards. It cannot work to ODTC prices and validity because there
would have to be validators / gates at every National Rail station in
the zonal area. These don't exist so therefore if you lived in an area
exclusively served by NR trains you would have no way in which to
register your trips and therefore contribute to your daily total of
rides that would be capped at the One Day Travelcard price.

It took me a long time to "click" that the LT Card price would be
trigger for the daily cap and not the One Day Travelcard.

But you can't use Pre-pay on the majority of rail journeys within London
anyway (just 10 or so specific ones like Marylebone up to Amersham).
It's currently only offically valid on tube and DLR. It also looks like
it's starting to work on buses as well.

Does anyone know if there are plans to roll out the validators to all
the national rail stations across London? As I live in the South East,
I'm kinda not getting the best use out of my pre-pay.

And, incidentally, although I don't think it's listed as one of the rail
routes you can use pre-pay on, does anyone know if it's valid from
Charing Cross to those stations which do have gates (but not inbetween).
i.e. London Bridge, New Cross/New Cross Gate, Woolwich Arsenal, East
Croydon?.

If I understand you right. When capping comes in it will work on the price
stucture for peak time travelcards and LT cards not off peak travelcards.

If this is correct most customers will still be better off with a paper
tickets.

When do you think capping will work at OPTC prices

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:47:01 -0000, "Anon"
wrote:

If I understand you right. When capping comes in it will work on the price
stucture for peak time travelcards and LT cards not off peak travelcards.

If this is correct most customers will still be better off with a paper
tickets.

When do you think capping will work at OPTC prices

Presumably when/if all the TOCs that participate in the Travelcard
scheme have validators/gatelines installed at all their stations.

Which will most likely be...erm...never, given the number of unstaffed
stations and stations only staffed part-time in the London area, which
surely defeats the point of Penalty Fares...

Cya,

Barry

--
Barry Salter, barry at southie dot me dot uk
Read uk.* newsgroups? Read uk.net.news.announce!

DISCLAIMER: The above comments do not necessarily represent the
views of my employers.

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:47:01 -0000, "Anon"
wrote:

If I understand you right. When capping comes in it will work on the price
stucture for peak time travelcards and LT cards not off peak travelcards.

It will not work for peak time travelcards either - to cap at Travelcard
prices you have to be able to record all forms of Travelcard valid
travel. Hence you are back to the issue about almost all NR journeys not
being recorded and not being valid for Pre-Pay travel.

The ticket that aligns to the planned Pre Pay validity is the LT Card.

If this is correct most customers will still be better off with a paper
tickets.

Yes I think that is my conclusion too.

When do you think capping will work at OPTC prices

I have no idea on the timing. As I have said before it is clear that the
TfL business plan has as an option an extension of pre-pay facilities
and validity to the whole London rail network. That is not without some
interesting practical problems to solve but if it was to happen then
capping at ODTC prices would become feasible.

In the meantime the policy appears to be to negotiate with individual
TOCs and extend pre-pay validity where possible line by line. Therefore
the LT / NR interavailability rules expand at the same time.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!