Until recently, it has been possible to purchase an in-boundary one
day travelcard (one with a London station as the origin) on a
trainline-derivative booking site and then collect it from a
fastticket machine. This now appears to have changed.

On the website, I was told:

"Unfortunately collection from a Self-service Ticket machine is not
permitted for this ticket."

so I queried this. The response I got from the customer services
department was:

"I am sorry to inform you that a Self Service Ticket Machine option is
not available for London Day Travelcard.

Since the London Day Travelcard does not get dispensed from the Self
Service Ticket Machine, our website does not give this option. In this
case, you can purchase the London Day Travelcard from the station."

This is clearly nonsense as I can buy a one-day travelcard from a self-
service machine at any station within the boundary with that station
as the origin. So I went back and made this point. The response I
got was:

"I would like to inform you that according to the industry policy
rules, London Day Travelcards cannot be dispensed from a Self Service
Ticket Machine. Furthermore, I have passed the details to our
Development Team for review. We appreciate you taking the time out to
share your thoughts with us."

I can appreciate that "industry policy rules" may be trying to tackle
some sort of fraud (i.e. people buying an in-boundary travelcard from
an out-boundary station without a ticket to the boundary) but is this
really the case? Where are these rules?

I think I can still buy one online to be posted to me provided I give
enough notice.


Jonathan

wrote:
Until recently, it has been possible to purchase an in-boundary one
day travelcard (one with a London station as the origin) on a
trainline-derivative booking site and then collect it from a
fastticket machine. This now appears to have changed.

snip

"I would like to inform you that according to the industry policy
rules, London Day Travelcards cannot be dispensed from a Self Service
Ticket Machine. Furthermore, I have passed the details to our
Development Team for review. We appreciate you taking the time out to
share your thoughts with us."

I can appreciate that "industry policy rules" may be trying to tackle
some sort of fraud (i.e. people buying an in-boundary travelcard from
an out-boundary station without a ticket to the boundary) but is this
really the case? Where are these rules?


That's a new one on me! The only "rules" I can think of are those in
"The Manual" (formerly Section K of the NFM) that state:

quote

'In-Boundary' [Off-Peak Day Travelcards]:

The origin station on the ticket must be located within the Fare Zones
that the ticket is being issued for.

Tickets issued to start at a station within the Travelcard area must not
include travel to a station outside the Travelcard area.

Tickets are valid for travel from 0930 Monday to Friday on the date
shown on the ticket, and can only be issued at stations:-

+ on the day of travel – from 0930 Monday to Friday (excluding Public
Holidays), except where trains are timed to depart at or soon after 0930
when they may be issued before 0930. This will normally be after the
departure of the last restricted train, but where the train service
operator allows they may be sold before then.

+ in advance – from 0930 Monday to Friday, any time at weekends, and
Public Holidays, up to 7 days in advance of the day for which the ticket
is dated.

/quote

I'm guessing they're referring to the first rule there, as there's no
way they can guarantee that you'll collect the ticket from an TVM in the
relevant Zonal Area, and the TVMs can't do remote origin, so they apply
a blanket ban.

Cheers,

Barry

Barry Salter wrote

wrote
Until recently, it has been possible to purchase an in-boundary one
day travelcard (one with a London station as the origin) on a
trainline-derivative booking site and then collect it from a
fastticket machine. This now appears to have changed.

"The Manual" (formerly Section K of the NFM) that state:

+ in advance – from 0930 Monday to Friday, any time at weekends, and

Public Holidays, up to 7 days in advance of the day for which the
ticket
is dated.

If this applies to any Off-Peak ticket then you can buy one in advance
only at on a day and at a time when it would be valid if issued for
immediate travel ?

Seems pointlessly restrictive

Would a NR automatic ticket barrier reject an attempt to use a
post-dated ticket ?


Which brings me to another question on FastTicket machines: SWT (in the
latest, Sept/Oct, free mag) mentions SWT's scheduled enhancement to
allow Monthly renewals, pre-paid ticket collection and tickets for
tomorrow. But only Anytime (peak) tickets for tomorrow.

Is this restriction in force in other areas ?

--
Mike D

On 16 Sep, 17:23, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

Barry Salter wrote

wrote
Until recently, it has been possible to purchase an in-boundary
one day travelcard (one with a London station as the origin) on
a trainline-derivative booking site and then collect it from a
fastticket machine. *This now appears to have changed.

"The Manual" (formerly Section K of the NFM) that state:
+ *in advance – from 0930 Monday to Friday, any time at weekends, and
Public Holidays, up to 7 days in advance of the day for which the
ticket is dated.

If this applies to any Off-Peak ticket then you can buy one in advance
only at on a day and at a time when it would be valid if issued for
immediate travel ?

Seems pointlessly restrictive

Perhaps just intended to keep leisure travellers who wish to buy
tickets in advance away from clogging up busy ticket offices during
the rush hour (leisure travellers often having a leisurely demeanour
whilst rush hour travellers are often... you see where I'm going with
this).


Would a NR automatic ticket barrier reject an attempt to use a
post-dated ticket ?


Yes, as would an LU one.


Which brings me to another question on FastTicket machines: SWT (in the
latest, Sept/Oct, free mag) mentions SWT's scheduled enhancement to
allow Monthly *renewals, pre-paid ticket collection and tickets for
tomorrow. But only Anytime (peak) tickets for tomorrow.

Is this restriction in force in other areas ?


You haven't made at all clear what the scheduled enhancement entails -
i.e. what is enhanced?

On Sep 16, 6:06*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 16 Sep, 17:23, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:





Barry Salter wrote

wrote
Until recently, it has been possible to purchase an in-boundary
one day travelcard (one with a London station as the origin) on
a trainline-derivative booking site and then collect it from a
fastticket machine. *This now appears to have changed.

"The Manual" (formerly Section K of the NFM) that state:
+ *in advance – from 0930 Monday to Friday, any time at weekends, and
Public Holidays, up to 7 days in advance of the day for which the
ticket is dated.

If this applies to any Off-Peak ticket then you can buy one in advance
only at on a day and at a time when it would be valid if issued for
immediate travel ?

Seems pointlessly restrictive

Perhaps just intended to keep leisure travellers who wish to buy
tickets in advance away from clogging up busy ticket offices during
the rush hour (leisure travellers often having a leisurely demeanour
whilst rush hour travellers are often... you see where I'm going with
this).



Would a NR automatic ticket barrier reject an attempt to use a
post-dated ticket ?

Yes, as would an LU one.

But can you still get travelcards from shops that aren't dated till
they've been through a barrier? Presumably one could buy them any
time, but you'd need to come to an understanding about the date
stamped on it.

Mizter T wrote:
On 16 Sep, 17:23, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

Which brings me to another question on FastTicket machines: SWT (in
the latest, Sept/Oct, free mag) mentions SWT's scheduled enhancement
to allow Monthly renewals, pre-paid ticket collection and tickets for
tomorrow. But only Anytime (peak) tickets for tomorrow.

Is this restriction in force in other areas ?

I suppose the fact that Offpeak (and Super Offpeak) tickets and e.g. Network
Card discounts don't appear on the machines until they become valid makes it
unlikely they'd appear the night before. Although pre-paid ticket
collection (which I haven't used becasue SWT haven't provided it yet)
presumably provides a way round this??

You haven't made at all clear what the scheduled enhancement entails -
i.e. what is enhanced?

What SWT are calling an 'enhancement' is simply providing the facilities
such as pre-paid ticket collection (TOD) and tickets for next day travel
that many TOCs already provide.

Not sure about monthly season renewal availability generally though.

One planned facility that appears to be a real enhancement is intended to be
inclusive tickets for attractions such as Chessington, apparently due next
summer...

Paul

On 16 Sep, 18:13, MIG wrote:

On Sep 16, 6:06 pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 16 Sep, 17:23, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

(snip)

Would a NR automatic ticket barrier reject an attempt to use a
post-dated ticket ?

Yes, as would an LU one.

But can you still get travelcards from shops that aren't dated till
they've been through a barrier? Presumably one could buy them any
time, but you'd need to come to an understanding about the date
stamped on it.


The point you're making isn't exactly clear to me.

Note that as ever I don't wish to provide a fare evaders guide, but
this stuff is hardly beyond the realm of most peoples capacity for
logical thought so I'm certainly not offering up anything that's
remotely secret here.

Several shops do sell Day Travelcards using the old fashioned method -
which involves the shopkeeper stamping the ticket themselves using a
manual date stamp. This obviously doesn't encode the magnetic strip,
so presumably that happens on first use when the ticket gets passed
through an LU gate (or indeed an NR gate, if they are so equipped). I
guess there may be some system by which the shopkeeper has several
different stocks of Day Travelcards, and picks one in particular that
will be valid that day - e.g. there is a ticket stock for Thirsday
which will only work on a Thursday - however I think the opportunity
for things to get muddled up would be too great for that.

This is how local shops (Pass Agents, Ticket Stops, call them what you
will) always used to sell one-day Travelcards in the days of yore -
however the majority of shops were upgraded to having ticket vending
machines that printed and (presumably) encoded the tickets. I *think*
this was all part of the Prestige ticketing project (which also
brought you Oyster), as these started appearing in the mid to late
90's (the PFI contract being signed in 1995) - these new machines were
certainly capable of being upgraded so as to handle Oyster (and thus
have Oyster pads fitted).

Interestingly I've noticed that a number of shops that previously had
this equipment have now had it replaced with simpler Oyster-only kit -
i.e. there's no printer, it only does Oyster (pay-as-you-go topups and
weekly, monthly or annual Travelcards and bus passes). I have also
seen some shops that are new to selling tickets get this kit. However
they continue to sell Day Travelcards, but they have reverted to using
the manual date stamp method to date the ticket stock. I think that
some of these shops only stock some of the Day Travelcard range - from
the off-peak range, one near me sells z1&2, z1-4 and z1-6 but not z2-6
- I don't know about what Anytime Day Travelcards they stock are (N.B.
the Peak Day Travelcard has now been renamed the Anytime Day
Travelcard to fit in with the NR fares 'simplification').

I can see why this may have happened - the logic being that Oyster is
now the predominant medium for selling 'ticketing products' (most
shops now only sell weekly or longer Travelcards and bus passes on
Oyster), so why maintain a far more complex machine that has moving
parts in it (i.e. the printer) when on the whole it goes unused.
Still, it's a bit annoying as (a) it takes far longer and is more of a
faff for the shopkeeper to issue a Day Travelcard, and (b) it would
seem that at least some shops don't stock the whole range - and
there's always the possibility that they'll be out of stock of the
relevant ticket.

One thing that certainly is annoying is that the new Oyster-only kit
doesn't have a customer facing LCD display - so you can't just pop
your Oyster card on the reader and instantly see how much credit
you've got left on it (I presume the shopkeeper can see this on their
screen however). I suppose some shopkeepers might welcome this as it
means that people don't just come in their shop to check their PAYG
balance - but I never really saw many people doing that and then
walking out, rather people who were buying other things (newspaper,
chewing gum etc) certainly do take the opportunity to check their
balance when at the till but if their PAYG balance was low they'll
often top it up there and then (earning the shopkeeper a commission in
the process).

On Sep 16, 8:05*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 16 Sep, 18:13, MIG wrote:





On Sep 16, 6:06 pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 16 Sep, 17:23, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

(snip)

Would a NR automatic ticket barrier reject an attempt to use a
post-dated ticket ?

Yes, as would an LU one.

But can you still get travelcards from shops that aren't dated till
they've been through a barrier? *Presumably one could buy them any
time, but you'd need to come to an understanding about the date
stamped on it.

The point you're making isn't exactly clear to me.

Well, if you wanted a travelcard to use the next day, it might work
barriers from when you first used it tomorrow (if that is how they
work) but if the shopkeeper stamped today's date on it, it wouldn't
pass a visual inspection on a bus tomorrow.

To ask for it to be stamped with tomorrow's date would provide no
additional cheaty opportunities to what's always possible.

On 16 Sep, 21:25, MIG wrote:

On Sep 16, 8:05*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 16 Sep, 18:13, MIG wrote:

(snip)

But can you still get travelcards from shops that aren't dated till
they've been through a barrier? *Presumably one could buy them any
time, but you'd need to come to an understanding about the date
stamped on it.

The point you're making isn't exactly clear to me.

Well, if you wanted a travelcard to use the next day, it might work
barriers from when you first used it tomorrow (if that is how they
work) but if the shopkeeper stamped today's date on it, it wouldn't
pass a visual inspection on a bus tomorrow.


I thought that was the point you were making, but I wasn't entirely
clear of that.


To ask for it to be stamped with tomorrow's date would provide no
additional cheaty opportunities to what's always possible.


Absolutely. I don't know what the rules are for TfL "Ticket Stops" -
i.e. how many days in advance they're allowed to sell the ticket - but
my guess is that it is the same as the National Rail rules, i.e. 7
days in advance. I've only ever bought one for 'tomorrow', beyond that
I wouldn't bother in case plans change - but for a whole host of
scenarios I can certainly see why buying several days in advance might
come in handy.

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:47:53 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:


On 16 Sep, 21:25, MIG wrote:

On Sep 16, 8:05*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 16 Sep, 18:13, MIG wrote:

(snip)

But can you still get travelcards from shops that aren't dated till
they've been through a barrier? *Presumably one could buy them any
time, but you'd need to come to an understanding about the date
stamped on it.

The point you're making isn't exactly clear to me.

Well, if you wanted a travelcard to use the next day, it might work
barriers from when you first used it tomorrow (if that is how they
work) but if the shopkeeper stamped today's date on it, it wouldn't
pass a visual inspection on a bus tomorrow.


I thought that was the point you were making, but I wasn't entirely
clear of that.


To ask for it to be stamped with tomorrow's date would provide no
additional cheaty opportunities to what's always possible.

You could use it on the Underground and on buses today in the hope
no-one looks at the date and then use it tomorrow only on buses (where
the magnetic stripe isn't going to be read?).


Absolutely. I don't know what the rules are for TfL "Ticket Stops" -
i.e. how many days in advance they're allowed to sell the ticket - but
my guess is that it is the same as the National Rail rules, i.e. 7
days in advance. I've only ever bought one for 'tomorrow', beyond that
I wouldn't bother in case plans change - but for a whole host of
scenarios I can certainly see why buying several days in advance might
come in handy.