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Improving public transport access to London's airports
London TravelWatch published yesterday a report on improving surface access to London's airports. It can be found at:- http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=497&x[0]=news/list
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Improving public transport access to London's airports
wrote:
London TravelWatch published yesterday a report on improving surface access to London's airports. It can be found at:- http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=497&x[0]=news/list Thanks for coming and posting that :) That covers most of the comments I might have made. In particular, if the balance shifts towards expansion of Gatwick then thoughts need to be made in terms of interconnecting Gatwick and Heathrow in a better way than the National Express bus crawling along the M25. Electrifying the North Downs line plus Airtrack seem sensible ideas, though there's a question about whether airside transfer is going to be a necessity of running two hub airports: a long of transfer passengers won't have visas for the UK. Another point is about access from north of Stansted - that's still a problem for access to London airports, just not from London. The train service, consisting of Cross Country from Birmingham, is essentially run to suit Birmingham not airport passengers: the first arrival on Sundays is 1444, and doesn't run sufficiently early in the morning or late at night to match the kind of flights that operate out of Stansted. Also ticket machines need some serious work to rationalise the user interface for people who are unfamiliar with UK ticketing or restrictions. All they know is 'London', and are confused by the options for Super Off-Peak TOC-only Travelcards and all the permutations. It also should be remembered that contactless payment is not an option for people with non-UK cards (and, for credit control reasons, may continue that way). Theo |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
In message , at 19:17:53 on Thu, 9 Oct
2014, Clive Page remarked: On 09/10/2014 11:32, wrote: London TravelWatch published yesterday a report on improving surface access to London's airports. It can be found at:- http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=497&x[0]=news/list That's an interesting report, with fairly sensible (if fairly obvious) conclusions. But one item on p6 stuck me as a bit odd, it says: "London’s Oystercard/contactless payments ticketing system should be extended to cover journeys on Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect to and from Heathrow Airport, and on journeys to and from Luton Airport Parkway and Stansted Airport stations" I've seen similar (or were they an earlier version of the same) reports about extending Oyster to those airports. Maybe the roll-out of contactless payments will trump that, especially for the tourist market who are unlikely to have Oysters (on arrival at Luton, anyway). I would have thought that covering journeys to/from Luton Airport (not merely Airport Parkway) would be the think to aim for. Since the shuttle bus is no longer free, without this arriving passengers will have to find cash to pay for the bus, and only then could they use their Oyster cards for the rail part of the journey. At present if they can find the (well-hidden) places to buy rail tickets in the airport they can buy a through ticket. There's a prominent machine in baggage reclaim. I agree that there should be better advertised ones landside (eg at the bus station). The report also says on p27 that the bus is free to those holding rail tickets - this is very misleading, as it only applies to those who have bought a rail ticket to/from the *airport*, i.e. which has a higher fare because it includes the shuttle bus element. All others have to pay the extra fare, currently £1-60. In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap Day Return and throw the other half away? Which if those fares would Oyster/CPC charge if you made only a single journey? -- Roland Perry |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
In message , at 00:58:57 on Fri,
10 Oct 2014, Theo Markettos remarked: It also should be remembered that contactless payment is not an option for people with non-UK cards (and, for credit control reasons, may continue that way). I thought they'd gone a long way to fixing that. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-paym...tless/what-is- contactless#outside But there may well still be a blind spot for those prepay cards sold at American airports to tourists worried about C&P in the UK. Maybe that's the subset that they are talking about? Although the achilles heel for all families/groups travelling is that you need one card per person. -- Roland Perry |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 09:40, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 00:58:57 on Fri, 10 Oct 2014, Theo Markettos remarked: It also should be remembered that contactless payment is not an option for people with non-UK cards (and, for credit control reasons, may continue that way). I thought they'd gone a long way to fixing that. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-paym...tless/what-is- contactless#outside But there may well still be a blind spot for those prepay cards sold at American airports to tourists worried about C&P in the UK. Maybe that's the subset that they are talking about? I think it's more than that - there are some non-UK cards that won't work for various reasons. Re pre-paid cards - I've reported this before on here, but my Orange Cash pre-paid card (the only prepaid card on the UK market I've come across that has contactless) didn't work when I tested it for CPC transactions on London buses. I haven't tested it since the 16 Sept full rollout of CPC on London transport (because stupidly it's in the pocket of a jacket that's hanging on a hook many miles away!), but I will as soon as I can. I don't expect it will work though. Although the achilles heel for all families/groups travelling is that you need one card per person. Yep. For children visiting London, the child Off-peak Day Travelcard (zones 1-6) at £3.60 is a decent option - though it's hardly obvious looking at the TfL website. It is possible to get a 5-10 or 11-15 'Zip' Oyster Photocard if you're visiting London, but you need to apply online and then pick it up, with proof of age, from one of the five TfL Travel Information Centres. (5-10 year olds won't need one if travelling accompanied by an adult on the Tube/DLR/LO as they go free, ditto for London buses but no need for an accompanying adult.) |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 09:33, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 19:17:53 on Thu, 9 Oct 2014, Clive Page remarked: On 09/10/2014 11:32, wrote: London TravelWatch published yesterday a report on improving surface access to London's airports. It can be found at:- http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=497&x[0]=news/list That's an interesting report, with fairly sensible (if fairly obvious) conclusions. But one item on p6 stuck me as a bit odd, it says: "London’s Oystercard/contactless payments ticketing system should be extended to cover journeys on Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect to and from Heathrow Airport, and on journeys to and from Luton Airport Parkway and Stansted Airport stations" I've seen similar (or were they an earlier version of the same) reports about extending Oyster to those airports. Maybe the roll-out of contactless payments will trump that, especially for the tourist market who are unlikely to have Oysters (on arrival at Luton, anyway). Acceptance would presumably be Oyster + contactless (in London they go hand in hand now). What might be useful is a 'check your contactless card works on public transport in London' type card scanner at certain places where there are lots of foreign tourists. I would have thought that covering journeys to/from Luton Airport (not merely Airport Parkway) would be the think to aim for. Since the shuttle bus is no longer free, without this arriving passengers will have to find cash to pay for the bus, and only then could they use their Oyster cards for the rail part of the journey. At present if they can find the (well-hidden) places to buy rail tickets in the airport they can buy a through ticket. There's a prominent machine in baggage reclaim. I agree that there should be better advertised ones landside (eg at the bus station). Agreed the one in baggage reclaim is pretty obvious. The report also says on p27 that the bus is free to those holding rail tickets - this is very misleading, as it only applies to those who have bought a rail ticket to/from the *airport*, i.e. which has a higher fare because it includes the shuttle bus element. All others have to pay the extra fare, currently £1-60. In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap Day Return and throw the other half away? Sorry, that's not quite right - for journeys *from* Luton Airport - the Anytime Day Single from Luton Airport to London is £15.50, the Off-peak Day Return is £16.50. Similarly, at weekends the Super Off-peak Day Single is £10.40, whilst the Super Off-peak Day Return is £12.00. However for journeys *to* Luton Airport from London, *on weekdays* the exact same applies - the Anytime Day Single is cheapest - however on *weekends* the cheapest option is the Super Off-peak Day Return at £12, as (for reasons unknown) they don't make the Super Off-peak Day Single available for journeys starting from London. (My recollection is that the Super Off-peak Day Return didn't used to be available from the London end, so you could only take advantage of it by buying one to start at Luton Airport and just using the return portion.) Which if those fares would Oyster/CPC charge if you made only a single journey? |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
In message , at 10:45:54 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked: In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap Day Return and throw the other half away? Sorry, that's not quite right - for journeys *from* Luton Airport - the Anytime Day Single from Luton Airport to London is £15.50, the Off-peak Day Return is £16.50. Similarly, at weekends the Super Off-peak Day Single is £10.40, whilst the Super Off-peak Day Return is £12.00. Things must have changed in the most recent fares manual (I was working from the Avantix that expired last month, which shows an Anytime Day Single at £26) However for journeys *to* Luton Airport from London, *on weekdays* the exact same applies - the Anytime Day Single is cheapest - however on *weekends* the cheapest option is the Super Off-peak Day Return at £12, as (for reasons unknown) they don't make the Super Off-peak Day Single available for journeys starting from London. There never used to be a Super Off-peak Day Single at all. But it's available from London too: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?o...o=1072&tkt=CBB (My recollection is that the Super Off-peak Day Return didn't used to be available from the London end, so you could only take advantage of it by buying one to start at Luton Airport and just using the return portion.) When the weekend-only Super Off Peak Day Returns [CBA] were introduced to where I live on what's now Great Northern they were only into London, but now there's an outward flow as well. -- Roland Perry |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 2014-10-10 08:33:06 +0000, Roland Perry said:
I've seen similar (or were they an earlier version of the same) reports about extending Oyster to those airports. Maybe the roll-out of contactless payments will trump that, especially for the tourist market who are unlikely to have Oysters (on arrival at Luton, anyway). Indeed. While Oyster was definitely a worthwhile product of its time, I suspect it has a very limited future lifespan - 5 to 10 years maybe - as banking products replace it. I would have thought that covering journeys to/from Luton Airport (not merely Airport Parkway) would be the think to aim for. Since the shuttle bus is no longer free, without this arriving passengers will have to find cash to pay for the bus, and only then could they use their Oyster cards for the rail part of the journey. At present if they can find the (well-hidden) places to buy rail tickets in the airport they can buy a through ticket. There's a prominent machine in baggage reclaim. I agree that there should be better advertised ones landside (eg at the bus station). There is a very obvious ticket machine outside right at the bus stop for the shuttle bus, and the conductor[1] has a ticket machine as well. [1] Why on earth does it have a conductor when the layovers at each end are (deliberately) quite long, so there is plenty of time for the driver to sell tickets? As ISTR you aren't penalised for not buying a through ticket - the add-on is the same as the bus fare - there is no need for through rail tickets to be sold on the bus itself. In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap Day Return and throw the other half away? For what, the bus? brfares.com doesn't list a CDR, just SDS, SDR and SOR (the latter two bizarrely costing the same, so why the middle one exists I have no idea). Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 11:28, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:45:54 on Fri, 10 Oct 2014, Mizter T remarked: In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap Day Return and throw the other half away? Sorry, that's not quite right - for journeys *from* Luton Airport - the Anytime Day Single from Luton Airport to London is £15.50, the Off-peak Day Return is £16.50. Similarly, at weekends the Super Off-peak Day Single is £10.40, whilst the Super Off-peak Day Return is £12.00. Things must have changed in the most recent fares manual (I was working from the Avantix that expired last month, which shows an Anytime Day Single at £26) No, it was never that expensive. However for journeys *to* Luton Airport from London, *on weekdays* the exact same applies - the Anytime Day Single is cheapest - however on *weekends* the cheapest option is the Super Off-peak Day Return at £12, as (for reasons unknown) they don't make the Super Off-peak Day Single available for journeys starting from London. There never used to be a Super Off-peak Day Single at all. But it's available from London too: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?o...o=1072&tkt=CBB That's only to Luton Airport Parkway, but yes you're quite right there are Super Off-peak Singles *from London* to Luton Airport too - for some reason I missed that earlier: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=STP&dest=3667&grpo=1072&tkt=CBB & http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=STP&dest=3667&grpo=4452&tkt=CBB (My recollection is that the Super Off-peak Day Return didn't used to be available from the London end, so you could only take advantage of it by buying one to start at Luton Airport and just using the return portion.) When the weekend-only Super Off Peak Day Returns [CBA] were introduced to where I live on what's now Great Northern they were only into London, but now there's an outward flow as well. Yes, they must have been introduced not so long ago. Annoying that they didn't exist in the first place. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 11:40, Neil Williams wrote: On 2014-10-10 08:33:06 +0000, Roland Perry said: I've seen similar (or were they an earlier version of the same) reports about extending Oyster to those airports. Maybe the roll-out of contactless payments will trump that, especially for the tourist market who are unlikely to have Oysters (on arrival at Luton, anyway). Indeed. While Oyster was definitely a worthwhile product of its time, I suspect it has a very limited future lifespan - 5 to 10 years maybe - as banking products replace it. No chance, for the many for whom that's not an option. As Paul has said in the past on here, the direction for Oyster seems likely to be a mark II version which is account based rather than card based. I would have thought that covering journeys to/from Luton Airport (not merely Airport Parkway) would be the think to aim for. Since the shuttle bus is no longer free, without this arriving passengers will have to find cash to pay for the bus, and only then could they use their Oyster cards for the rail part of the journey. At present if they can find the (well-hidden) places to buy rail tickets in the airport they can buy a through ticket. There's a prominent machine in baggage reclaim. I agree that there should be better advertised ones landside (eg at the bus station). There is a very obvious ticket machine outside right at the bus stop for the shuttle bus, and the conductor[1] has a ticket machine as well. [1] Why on earth does it have a conductor when the layovers at each end are (deliberately) quite long, so there is plenty of time for the driver to sell tickets? As ISTR you aren't penalised for not buying a through ticket - the add-on is the same as the bus fare - there is no need for through rail tickets to be sold on the bus itself. So it can be done in one transaction, rather than two? (i.e. bus + train) Also the Super Off-peak tickets including the shuttle bus do offer a saving. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
In message , at 11:56:25 on Fri, 10 Oct 2014,
Mizter T remarked: When the weekend-only Super Off Peak Day Returns [CBA] were introduced to where I live on what's now Great Northern they were only into London, but now there's an outward flow as well. Yes, they must have been introduced not so long ago. Annoying that they didn't exist in the first place. I suspect they were to encourage local yokels to go up to London for the day, rather than give an unexpected discount to tourists visiting Cambridge from London. -- Roland Perry |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 00:58:57 on Fri, 10 Oct 2014, Theo Markettos remarked: It also should be remembered that contactless payment is not an option for people with non-UK cards (and, for credit control reasons, may continue that way). I thought they'd gone a long way to fixing that. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-paym...tless/what-is- contactless#outside That's still a UK-centric view of the world. What proportion of issuers in non-UK countries issue contactless cards at all? And how many are compatible? For example, if I have a China UnionPay card it won't work in London (AIUI) - it's not just a question of technology but it's a stored-value card so would need very different processes? Theo |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 2014-10-10 11:08:02 +0000, Mizter T said:
No chance, for the many for whom that's not an option. As Paul has said in the past on here, the direction for Oyster seems likely to be a mark II version which is account based rather than card based. Possibly. But I think the banks will start providing far more contactless pre-paid cards of various types, which will provide a reasonable alternative. Then no need for TfL to get involved in handling the money. This might tend more towards 10 years, though. So it can be done in one transaction, rather than two? (i.e. bus + train) True, though paying the bus driver doesn't take long, and on a service with long layovers at both ends doesn't delay anything. Its biggest problem might I suppose well be people coming out of the airport with large notes, which I guess is a case for making it free again. I wonder how profitable it is? Also the Super Off-peak tickets including the shuttle bus do offer a saving. I stand corrected, I thought all tickets just had the SDS/SDR/SOR added on, like PlusBus. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 13:37, Theo Markettos wrote: Roland Perry wrote: [...] It also should be remembered that contactless payment is not an option for people with non-UK cards (and, for credit control reasons, may continue that way). I thought they'd gone a long way to fixing that. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-paym...tless/what-is- contactless#outside That's still a UK-centric view of the world. What proportion of issuers in non-UK countries issue contactless cards at all? And how many are compatible? For example, if I have a China UnionPay card it won't work in London (AIUI) - it's not just a question of technology but it's a stored-value card so would need very different processes? The blurb is concerning contactless cards, so that point is irrelevant in the context of the above page. It does say that some contactless cards might not work - for Mastercard & Maestro it suggests the countries where the cards that are more likely not to work are issued. And it specifically says UnionPay, Diners Club and JCB aren't accepted. If you're making the more general point that it would be foolish to assume most visitors (even several years down the line) might have contactless cards, then I'd absolutely agree with you. There isn't any suggestion that bank (or similar) payment cards are going to be the only way to pay in the future - for a whole host of reasons, that'd be totally unworkable anyway. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 2014-10-10 12:37:47 +0000, Theo Markettos said:
That's still a UK-centric view of the world. What proportion of issuers in non-UK countries issue contactless cards at all? And how many are compatible? For example, if I have a China UnionPay card it won't work in London (AIUI) - it's not just a question of technology but it's a stored-value card so would need very different processes? Here's an idea - how about following places like parts of Germany and Switzerland, and introducing a tourist tax, providing a free 1-6 Travelcard (and an extra one on the last day) with every hotel night? Would catch much of this sort of thing. Then the rest could purchase paper tickets by card? I don't think it's viable to keep Oyster just for tourists. Nor is a "tourist tax", either by charging more for tickets or via hotel rooms, in any way uncommon the world over. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 13:52, Neil Williams wrote:
On 2014-10-10 11:08:02 +0000, Mizter T said: No chance, for the many for whom that's not an option. As Paul has said in the past on here, the direction for Oyster seems likely to be a mark II version which is account based rather than card based. Possibly. But I think the banks will start providing far more contactless pre-paid cards of various types, which will provide a reasonable alternative. Then no need for TfL to get involved in handling the money. This might tend more towards 10 years, though. I don't think so. Contactless cards as they are now are 'subject to status', basic bank account holders don't get them, nor do some others with regular accounts. My prepaid contactless card (Orange Cash) doesn't work on TfL either, for I suggest the same reasons (not me, just that it's prepaid). There are those who don't have a bank account, and those who can't get a bank account. There are children. There are overseas visitors, many of whom don't have contactless now and won't in the future. Just because it works for you (someone who's financially secure and eminently bankable), doesn't mean it'll work for everyone. So it can be done in one transaction, rather than two? (i.e. bus + train) True, though paying the bus driver doesn't take long, and on a service with long layovers at both ends doesn't delay anything. Its biggest problem might I suppose well be people coming out of the airport with large notes, which I guess is a case for making it free again. I wonder how profitable it is? Fair question. Though if it went free, then given Luton Airports drop-off charge for cars & taxis, it could attract 'freeloading' passengers who want to get to the airport from a free drop-off point or v.v. (Yes, the fee can be avoided by going to the mid-term car park & shuttle bus from there, but the Parkway station forecourt might be more convenient.) Also the Super Off-peak tickets including the shuttle bus do offer a saving. I stand corrected, I thought all tickets just had the SDS/SDR/SOR added on, like PlusBus. Seems to be the case for the other (non-Super) tickets, at least in terms of singles. For arriving easyjet passengers heading to central London, I think that (at least for those sans Railcard) the cheapest option is to buy the ticket they sell onboard. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 2014-10-10 13:11:48 +0000, Mizter T said:
Fair question. Though if it went free, then given Luton Airports drop-off charge for cars & taxis, it could attract 'freeloading' passengers who want to get to the airport from a free drop-off point or v.v. (Yes, the fee can be avoided by going to the mid-term car park & shuttle bus from there, but the Parkway station forecourt might be more convenient.) I'm not sure the airport would mind, given that they advertise the mid-term option (though few take them up on it). It's not just a profit centre, it's also a way of reducing congestion. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
In message , at 14:11:48 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked: For arriving easyjet passengers heading to central London, I think that (at least for those sans Railcard) the cheapest option is to buy the ticket they sell onboard. Time to post this from Luton Airport Parkway again: http://www.perry.co.uk/images/no-easyjet-tickets.jpg Although (1) they don't sell Easyjet tickets northbound as far as I know (2) the main point of the picture was an empty platform at 13:54:31 when the train was signed as expected at 13:53, originally scheduled for 13:51 -- Roland Perry |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 13:54, Neil Williams wrote: [...] Here's an idea - how about following places like parts of Germany and Switzerland, and introducing a tourist tax, providing a free 1-6 Travelcard (and an extra one on the last day) with every hotel night? Would catch much of this sort of thing. Then the rest could purchase paper tickets by card? I don't think it's viable to keep Oyster just for tourists. Nor is a "tourist tax", either by charging more for tickets or via hotel rooms, in any way uncommon the world over. Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London? Scenario 2: I am an 11 year old child. How do I travel around London? Scenario 3: I've lost my debit card. How do I travel around London? etc etc etc I look forward to the submission of your equal opportunities assessment statement, and the subsequent defence of the court case. That is, if you get it past the elected Mayor and assembly first, and all those pesky MPs too. Good luck! |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
In message , at 14:22:40 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked: I don't think it's viable to keep Oyster just for tourists. Nor is a "tourist tax", either by charging more for tickets or via hotel rooms, in any way uncommon the world over. Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London? Scenario 2: I am an 11 year old child. How do I travel around London? Scenario 3: I've lost my debit card. How do I travel around London? etc etc etc As a local, I agree. As a tourist, how did you fly to Heathrow? -- Roland Perry |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 14:21, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 14:11:48 on Fri, 10 Oct 2014, Mizter T remarked: For arriving easyjet passengers heading to central London, I think that (at least for those sans Railcard) the cheapest option is to buy the ticket they sell onboard. Time to post this from Luton Airport Parkway again: http://www.perry.co.uk/images/no-easyjet-tickets.jpg Although (1) they don't sell Easyjet tickets northbound as far as I know (2) the main point of the picture was an empty platform at 13:54:31 when the train was signed as expected at 13:53, originally scheduled for 13:51 I recall the cabin crew on board informing anyone who bought a ticket that they should head to platform 1, where the Thameslink (nee FCC) trains go from. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 14:26, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 14:22:40 on Fri, 10 Oct 2014, Mizter T remarked: I don't think it's viable to keep Oyster just for tourists. Nor is a "tourist tax", either by charging more for tickets or via hotel rooms, in any way uncommon the world over. Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London? Scenario 2: I am an 11 year old child. How do I travel around London? Scenario 3: I've lost my debit card. How do I travel around London? etc etc etc As a local, I agree. As a tourist, how did you fly to Heathrow? Scenario 1: I paid with my non-contactless (or possibly contactless but in fact UnionPay / Diners Club etc) credit/debit card. Scenario 2: I paid with my contactless Visa/Mastercard credit/debit card, but how are the rest of my family going to travel around London? Scenario 3: Someone else paid for me (it was a gift / a bursary / I don't have a credit/debit card so gave the money to someone else / I paid the travel agency in instalments, possibly in cash...). (Scenario 4: I didn't fly in to Heathrow, I took the Eurolines coach from Riga.) etc etc etc |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 2014-10-10 13:21:19 +0000, Roland Perry said:
In message , at 14:11:48 on Fri, 10 Oct 2014, Mizter T remarked: For arriving easyjet passengers heading to central London, I think that (at least for those sans Railcard) the cheapest option is to buy the ticket they sell onboard. Time to post this from Luton Airport Parkway again: http://www.perry.co.uk/images/no-easyjet-tickets.jpg Although (1) they don't sell Easyjet tickets northbound as far as I know (2) the main point of the picture was an empty platform at 13:54:31 when the train was signed as expected at 13:53, originally scheduled for 13:51 I think all EMT trains are tagged with that. FWIW, though, most tourists will be best served by using the far more frequent Thameslink. (Do those tickets still exist with the change of operator? Do easyJet even know the operator has changed? That could be fun :) ) Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 2014-10-10 13:22:40 +0000, Mizter T said:
Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London? A pre-paid debit card. I expect these will become more common. I didn't say abolish it now, I said a 5-10 year horizon. Maybe by then mobile phone tickets will have made an inroad? Or you use cash at a ticket machine to obtain a paper ticket, or a vastly simplified electronic "book" of day or single tickets, or something similar. If Oyster is only left with edge cases, it could be vastly simplified to become more similar to the kinds of smartcard system that have been implemented commercially by regional bus operators. Scenario 2: I am an 11 year old child. How do I travel around London? Free, isn't it? The cheapest option may well be to extend that to the Tube, and provide an easier means for non-Londoners to obtain Zip cards, perhaps at a nominal fee. Scenario 3: I've lost my debit card. How do I travel around London? As #1 part 2. (You've got other issues if you've lost your debit card - quite likely you've also lost your cash as well...) Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 2014-10-10 13:45:06 +0000, Mizter T said:
Scenario 2: I paid with my contactless Visa/Mastercard credit/debit card, but how are the rest of my family going to travel around London? I still think the "free ticket against a universal tourist tax" approach practiced elsewhere, e.g. throughout Switzerland, would be an excellent idea and would catch much of this. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 15:05, Neil Williams wrote: On 2014-10-10 13:21:19 +0000, Roland Perry said: [...] For arriving easyjet passengers heading to central London, I think that (at least for those sans Railcard) the cheapest option is to buy the ticket they sell onboard. Time to post this from Luton Airport Parkway again: http://www.perry.co.uk/images/no-easyjet-tickets.jpg Although (1) they don't sell Easyjet tickets northbound as far as I know (2) the main point of the picture was an empty platform at 13:54:31 when the train was signed as expected at 13:53, originally scheduled for 13:51 I think all EMT trains are tagged with that. FWIW, though, most tourists will be best served by using the far more frequent Thameslink. (Do those tickets still exist with the change of operator? Do easyJet even know the operator has changed? That could be fun :) ) It would appear that easyjet are on the ball: http://buyonboard.easyjet.com/#tickets-travel (well, up to a point - it shows the "GTR" logo for both Luton and Gatwick tickets, which I'm pretty sure isn't part of the TOCs customer facing identity) |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 15:11, Neil Williams wrote: On 2014-10-10 13:45:06 +0000, Mizter T said: Scenario 2: I paid with my contactless Visa/Mastercard credit/debit card, but how are the rest of my family going to travel around London? I still think the "free ticket against a universal tourist tax" approach practiced elsewhere, e.g. throughout Switzerland, would be an excellent idea and would catch much of this. Including those visiting friends in London for the weekend, for example? Or the day? (Not everyone arrives in London by rail with the possibility of having bought an outboundary Travelcard - they're not available for journeys from further afield anyway.) Sorry, there are simply far too many exceptions to your neat categories! |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
In message , at 15:14:50 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked: For arriving easyjet passengers heading to central London, I think that (at least for those sans Railcard) the cheapest option is to buy the ticket they sell onboard. Time to post this from Luton Airport Parkway again: http://www.perry.co.uk/images/no-easyjet-tickets.jpg Although (1) they don't sell Easyjet tickets northbound as far as I know (2) the main point of the picture was an empty platform at 13:54:31 when the train was signed as expected at 13:53, originally scheduled for 13:51 I think all EMT trains are tagged with that. FWIW, though, most tourists will be best served by using the far more frequent Thameslink. (Do those tickets still exist with the change of operator? Do easyJet even know the operator has changed? That could be fun :) ) It would appear that easyjet are on the ball: http://buyonboard.easyjet.com/#tickets-travel (well, up to a point - it shows the "GTR" logo for both Luton and Gatwick tickets, which I'm pretty sure isn't part of the TOCs customer facing identity) Indeed, they replace the GTR on the banner with either "Thameslink" or "Great Northern", as appropriate to the route. -- Roland Perry |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 15:10, Neil Williams wrote: On 2014-10-10 13:22:40 +0000, Mizter T said: Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London? A pre-paid debit card. I expect these will become more common. I didn't say abolish it now, I said a 5-10 year horizon. Maybe by then mobile phone tickets will have made an inroad? The prepaid contactless card I have doesn't work on TfL - I imagine because one could use it to run up a debt on it, given the lack of online authorisation (this is even though in this case - Orange Cash - they do verify who you are). FWIW, I got it out of curiosity, and for other contactless transactions it appears that an online authorisation is indeed done each time (hence it's not quite the 'wave and go' experience the adverts make out!). Perhaps this might all change, or a limited amount of fraud might be accepted given that, for instance, bus ticket machines are much more 'online' now than they used to be (so misused cards could be blacklisted sharpish). Or you use cash at a ticket machine to obtain a paper ticket, or a vastly simplified electronic "book" of day or single tickets, or something similar. If Oyster is only left with edge cases, it could be vastly simplified to become more similar to the kinds of smartcard system that have been implemented commercially by regional bus operators. A ticket machine where? In what was once the local Oyster Ticket Stop? This "vastly simplified Oyster" system doesn't sound so simple to me. Made more sense how it used to work... Scenario 2: I am an 11 year old child. How do I travel around London? Free, isn't it? The cheapest option may well be to extend that to the Tube, and provide an easier means for non-Londoners to obtain Zip cards, perhaps at a nominal fee. No, it's not free. 5-10 year olds travel free with accompanying adults on the Tube and other TfL rated services (DLR, LO, some NR services on the TfL tariff), but on many NR services children 5+ have to pay. The thought of a 7 year old travelling on the Tube unaccompanied by an adult might shock some, but when they're with their 14 year old sibling it makes rather more sense. Scenario 3: I've lost my debit card. How do I travel around London? As #1 part 2. (You've got other issues if you've lost your debit card - quite likely you've also lost your cash as well...) You might well have a backup Oyster card at home, or one you can borrow from someone. (Have you never left your debit card out of your wallet having bought something online?!) Meanwhile... Scenario 94: I have a contactless card but I don't have enough money in the bank - perhaps I might be able to use it for a journey, but that'll put me into unauthorised overdraft territory and my journey home will cost rather more than two or three quid. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 15:40, Mizter T wrote: On 10/10/2014 15:10, Neil Williams wrote: On 2014-10-10 13:22:40 +0000, Mizter T said: Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London? A pre-paid debit card. I expect these will become more common. I didn't say abolish it now, I said a 5-10 year horizon. Maybe by then mobile phone tickets will have made an inroad? The prepaid contactless card I have doesn't work on TfL - I imagine because one could use it to run up a debt on it, given the lack of online authorisation (this is even though in this case - Orange Cash - they do verify who you are). FWIW, I got it out of curiosity, and for other contactless transactions it appears that an online authorisation is indeed done each time (hence it's not quite the 'wave and go' experience the adverts make out!). Perhaps this might all change, or a limited amount of fraud might be accepted given that, for instance, bus ticket machines are much more 'online' now than they used to be (so misused cards could be blacklisted sharpish). Thinking about it, this is quite possibly what an Oyster Mark II system would be, if it's account based rather than card based (i.e. the value is not stored on the card but only on the central database). |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
In message , at 15:45:16 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked: Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London? A pre-paid debit card. I expect these will become more common. I didn't say abolish it now, I said a 5-10 year horizon. Maybe by then mobile phone tickets will have made an inroad? The prepaid contactless card I have doesn't work on TfL - I imagine because one could use it to run up a debt on it, given the lack of online authorisation (this is even though in this case - Orange Cash - they do verify who you are). FWIW, I got it out of curiosity, and for other contactless transactions it appears that an online authorisation is indeed done each time (hence it's not quite the 'wave and go' experience the adverts make out!). Perhaps this might all change, or a limited amount of fraud might be accepted given that, for instance, bus ticket machines are much more 'online' now than they used to be (so misused cards could be blacklisted sharpish). Thinking about it, this is quite possibly what an Oyster Mark II system would be, if it's account based rather than card based (i.e. the value is not stored on the card but only on the central database). If that's an account with real money in it, won't that mean TfL have to register with the authorities as a bank (which they didn't want to do with Oyster). Stored value cards like Oyster seem to be a loophole. -- Roland Perry |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 10/10/2014 15:53, Roland Perry wrote: [...] Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London? A pre-paid debit card. I expect these will become more common. I didn't say abolish it now, I said a 5-10 year horizon. Maybe by then mobile phone tickets will have made an inroad? The prepaid contactless card I have doesn't work on TfL - I imagine because one could use it to run up a debt on it, given the lack of online authorisation (this is even though in this case - Orange Cash - they do verify who you are). FWIW, I got it out of curiosity, and for other contactless transactions it appears that an online authorisation is indeed done each time (hence it's not quite the 'wave and go' experience the adverts make out!). Perhaps this might all change, or a limited amount of fraud might be accepted given that, for instance, bus ticket machines are much more 'online' now than they used to be (so misused cards could be blacklisted sharpish). Thinking about it, this is quite possibly what an Oyster Mark II system would be, if it's account based rather than card based (i.e. the value is not stored on the card but only on the central database). If that's an account with real money in it, won't that mean TfL have to register with the authorities as a bank (which they didn't want to do with Oyster). Stored value cards like Oyster seem to be a loophole. No (AIUI), as Oyster doesn't fall within the regulations as the only thing you can use it for is paying for travel - it's not about the technicalities of where the monetary value is stored, it's what it can be spent on (a bus journey is travel, a packet of polos isn't). |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 2014-10-10 14:40:35 +0000, Mizter T said:
The prepaid contactless card I have doesn't work on TfL - I imagine because one could use it to run up a debt on it, given the lack of online authorisation (this is even though in this case - Orange Cash - they do verify who you are). FWIW, I got it out of curiosity, and for other contactless transactions it appears that an online authorisation is indeed done each time (hence it's not quite the 'wave and go' experience the adverts make out!). Perhaps this might all change, or a limited amount of fraud might be accepted given that, for instance, bus ticket machines are much more 'online' now than they used to be (so misused cards could be blacklisted sharpish). Quite possibly. Remember I didn't say now, I said 5-10 years hence. A ticket machine where? In what was once the local Oyster Ticket Stop? A Tube station? Other strategic locations like bus stations? You might well have a backup Oyster card at home, or one you can borrow from someone. (Have you never left your debit card out of your wallet having bought something online?!) Meanwhile... Scenario 94: I have a contactless card but I don't have enough money in the bank - perhaps I might be able to use it for a journey, but that'll put me into unauthorised overdraft territory and my journey home will cost rather more than two or three quid. How's that different to the same situation with an Oyster card you have to top up? I suppose you might have a couple of quid cash in your pocket, but we are heading into Ian Batten's favourite goat-herding exceptions here. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
On 2014-10-10 14:53:24 +0000, Roland Perry said:
If that's an account with real money in it, won't that mean TfL have to register with the authorities as a bank (which they didn't want to do with Oyster). Stored value cards like Oyster seem to be a loophole. The Royal Mail and moonpig.com both allow pre-pay online balances. I'm sure there are many others, and I'm sure none are registered as banks. Isn't that one more about how it can be spent? Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
"Theo Markettos" wrote in message ... wrote: London TravelWatch published yesterday a report on improving surface access to London's airports. It can be found at:- http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=497&x[0]=news/list Thanks for coming and posting that :) That covers most of the comments I might have made. In particular, if the balance shifts towards expansion of Gatwick then thoughts need to be made in terms of interconnecting Gatwick and Heathrow in a better way than the National Express bus crawling along the M25. Electrifying the North Downs line plus Airtrack seem sensible ideas, though there's a question about whether airside transfer is going to be a necessity of running two hub airports: a long of transfer passengers won't have visas for the UK. Another point is about access from north of Stansted - that's still a problem for access to London airports, just not from London. The train service, consisting of Cross Country from Birmingham, is essentially run to suit Birmingham not airport passengers: the first arrival on Sundays is 1444, and doesn't run sufficiently early in the morning or late at night to match the kind of flights that operate out of Stansted. Also ticket machines need some serious work to rationalise the user interface for people who are unfamiliar with UK ticketing or restrictions. All they know is 'London', and are confused by the options for Super Off-Peak TOC-only Travelcards and all the permutations. IME this is a problem with almost every major country in the world Why should London have to try hard to solve it? tim |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
In message , at 17:19:05 on Fri, 10
Oct 2014, Neil Williams remarked: If that's an account with real money in it, won't that mean TfL have to register with the authorities as a bank (which they didn't want to do with Oyster). Stored value cards like Oyster seem to be a loophole. The Royal Mail and moonpig.com both allow pre-pay online balances. I'm sure there are many others, and I'm sure none are registered as banks. Isn't that one more about how it can be spent? You can get a refund from Oyster, is that true of your two examples (I know that getting a refund for a phone top-up is virtually impossible). -- Roland Perry |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
tim..... wrote:
"Theo Markettos" wrote in message ... [quoted entire message] IME this is a problem with almost every major country in the world Why should London have to try hard to solve it? To which problem do you refer? Theo |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
"Theo Markettos" wrote in message ... tim..... wrote: "Theo Markettos" wrote in message ... [quoted entire message] IME this is a problem with almost every major country in the world Why should London have to try hard to solve it? To which problem do you refer? being (un)able to buy "national" rail tickets rather than just local tickets from the machine in the airport metro station. (obviously this is not always a problem where the airport is served by the local national rail network) tim |
Improving public transport access to London's airports
tim..... wrote:
"Theo Markettos" wrote in message ... tim..... wrote: "Theo Markettos" wrote in message ... [quoted entire message] IME this is a problem with almost every major country in the world Why should London have to try hard to solve it? To which problem do you refer? being (un)able to buy "national" rail tickets rather than just local tickets from the machine in the airport metro station. (obviously this is not always a problem where the airport is served by the local national rail network) Gatwick /is/ served by the national rail network. And a large number of passengers are hoping to take a train to London, but that means they have to deal with National Rail. In which case they shouldn't have to decide whether they want a train in Southern, Gatwick Express or FCC colours, or whether they want a ticket that allows them to travel during some vaguely-specified hours called 'peak'. It's no wonder the queues at Gatwick are a problem if the staff have to explain all this, especially to people who might not speak English. And the ticket machines are worse: instead of saying 'are you coming back today?' and 'if you want to travel to London before 10am Monday-Friday, press here', they offer bewildering names like Super Off-Peak Travelcards that not even the denizens of this group know exactly what they mean. Theo |
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