TfL to possibly buy 200 extra New Bus for London
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 18:04:13 on Thu, 30 Oct
2014, Neil Williams remarked:
On 2014-10-30 15:59:12 +0000, Roland Perry said:

FWD is better to begin with in light snow/ice, but once conditions
have deteriorated sufficiently I'm sure that RWD is better.

I doubt it. The problem with RWD is that once things start to slip you
lose steering, and the back end just fishtails. Whereas any grip a FWD
car can get pulls it in the desired direction.

A FWD car in poor conditions tends to have chronic understeer, and
applying more steering doesn't help. In a RWD car even if the front
wheels start to understeer you can "oversteer" the back by applying the
throttle, which corrects the line. A bit of fishtailing is easily coped with.

4WD of course does both, but it isn't viable to fit that to all cars,
nor is it necessary. I have no need for a 4 wheel drive car - on the
week or so in a year if that when things get treacherous, I'll work
from home and leave the car on the drive, and do other local travel
on foot or in other peoples' vehicles, i.e. buses and taxis where
still running. And of course use the train to do long-distance
travel, as despite what people say about it in very bad conditions
it usually gets through when being on the roads is seriously ill-advised.

That strategy can work when a public transport option exists, but large
numbers of people don't have that option. As for driving being
"ill-advised", then I'd agree that many modern 2WD vehicles are hopeless
in the ice/snow (I wonder how well ASC will fix that), but 4WD makes a
staggering improvement.

ASC helps a bit, but not very much. I've been stranded several times on
hills with powerful RWD cars fitted with ASC, while less powerful FWD cars
crawled past. I just had no traction, even with ASC, as my wide wheels spun
helplessly, regardless of how gently I applied the throttle.

TfL to possibly buy 200 extra New Bus for London
 

On 2014-10-31 08:32:15 +0000, Roland Perry said:

A FWD car in poor conditions tends to have chronic understeer, and
applying more steering doesn't help. In a RWD car even if the front
wheels start to understeer you can "oversteer" the back by applying the
throttle, which corrects the line. A bit of fishtailing is easily coped
with.

The problem is, as evidenced by the number of stuck RWD cars during bad
weather, that most drivers do not have the skill to do that well.

That strategy can work when a public transport option exists, but large
numbers of people don't have that option. As for driving being
"ill-advised", then I'd agree that many modern 2WD vehicles are
hopeless in the ice/snow (I wonder how well ASC will fix that), but 4WD
makes a staggering improvement.

I don't know as I've never driven a car with ASC, let alone in poor
conditions. 4WD helps, but of course the rest of the time adds
maintenance costs and fuel consumption, so it doesn't make sense for
the majority of drivers to have a 4WD vehicle.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

TfL to possibly buy 200 extra New Bus for London
 

On 2014-10-31 09:46:44 +0000, Neil Williams said:

That strategy can work when a public transport option exists, but large
numbers of people don't have that option. As for driving being
"ill-advised", then I'd agree that many modern 2WD vehicles are
hopeless in the ice/snow (I wonder how well ASC will fix that), but 4WD
makes a staggering improvement.

I don't know as I've never driven a car with ASC, let alone in poor
conditions. 4WD helps, but of course the rest of the time adds
maintenance costs and fuel consumption, so it doesn't make sense for
the majority of drivers to have a 4WD vehicle.

The other problem (missed it in my post) with 4WD is the number of
"Chelsea tractor" drivers who don't know properly what it is, assume it
makes their braking better (it doesn't, other than the fact that the
vehicle is heavier and has a different type of tyre to a normal road
car, so just might grip a little better), and smash into a
tree/ditch/other vehicle as a result when it first snows. A pure
driver/education problem, though, not a problem with the vehicle.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

TfL to possibly buy 200 extra New Bus for London
 

In message , at 09:46:44 on Fri, 31
Oct 2014, Neil Williams remarked:
On 2014-10-31 08:32:15 +0000, Roland Perry said:

A FWD car in poor conditions tends to have chronic understeer, and
applying more steering doesn't help. In a RWD car even if the front
wheels start to understeer you can "oversteer" the back by applying
the throttle, which corrects the line. A bit of fishtailing is easily
coped with.

The problem is, as evidenced by the number of stuck RWD cars during bad
weather, that most drivers do not have the skill to do that well.

I see even more FWD cars stuck.

That strategy can work when a public transport option exists, but
large numbers of people don't have that option. As for driving being
"ill-advised", then I'd agree that many modern 2WD vehicles are
hopeless in the ice/snow (I wonder how well ASC will fix that), but
4WD makes a staggering improvement.

I don't know as I've never driven a car with ASC,

Me neither. Next time I hire a car (and if all modern cars are fitted
it'll be sure to have it...) I'll give it test-run.

let alone in poor conditions. 4WD helps, but of course the rest of the
time adds maintenance costs and fuel consumption, so it doesn't make
sense for the majority of drivers to have a 4WD vehicle.

That's because the majority of people live in urban areas and/or don't
have mission critical jobs. For the remainder, being cut off for a week
at a time would be a serious issue. I think we are lucky that for
whatever reason (climate change or just randomness) we haven't had long
periods of snow on the ground for quite a while.
--
Roland Perry

TfL to possibly buy 200 extra New Bus for London
 

In message , at 09:49:28 on Fri, 31
Oct 2014, Neil Williams remarked:
On 2014-10-31 09:46:44 +0000, Neil Williams said:

That strategy can work when a public transport option exists, but
large numbers of people don't have that option. As for driving being
"ill-advised", then I'd agree that many modern 2WD vehicles are
hopeless in the ice/snow (I wonder how well ASC will fix that), but
4WD makes a staggering improvement.
I don't know as I've never driven a car with ASC, let alone in poor
conditions. 4WD helps, but of course the rest of the time adds
maintenance costs and fuel consumption, so it doesn't make sense for
the majority of drivers to have a 4WD vehicle.

The other problem (missed it in my post) with 4WD is the number of
"Chelsea tractor" drivers who don't know properly what it is, assume it
makes their braking better (it doesn't, other than the fact that the
vehicle is heavier and has a different type of tyre to a normal road
car, so just might grip a little better), and smash into a
tree/ditch/other vehicle as a result when it first snows. A pure
driver/education problem, though, not a problem with the vehicle.

As such vehicles probably have ABS, I don't see how ASC is an
improvement as far as braking is concerned.

The other issue is that a 4WD vehicle doesn't need to brake at every
corner, like a pathologically understeering FWD car might, so
powering-round can be just as good a way to avoid the ditch.
--
Roland Perry

TfL to possibly buy 200 extra New Bus for London
 

On 2014-10-31 10:27:18 +0000, Roland Perry said:

I see even more FWD cars stuck.

Have you considered that that might be because there *are* more FWD
cars, as only premium cars these days are RWD? I see a
disproportionate number of RWD premium cars (Mercs, BMWs etc) stuck
compared with the general number of these on the road.

That's because the majority of people live in urban areas and/or don't
have mission critical jobs. For the remainder, being cut off for a week
at a time would be a serious issue.

The remainder should of course consider a 4x4, but they are not the
majority as you say.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

TfL to possibly buy 200 extra New Bus for London
 

On 2014-10-31 10:30:44 +0000, Roland Perry said:

As such vehicles probably have ABS, I don't see how ASC is an
improvement as far as braking is concerned.

The statement wasn't in favour of ASC, it was comparing the braking of
a large 4x4 to a normal car, it's not as much different as some new
drivers of 4x4s think.

The other issue is that a 4WD vehicle doesn't need to brake at every
corner, like a pathologically understeering FWD car might, so
powering-round can be just as good a way to avoid the ditch.

True, however again these Chelsea tractor drivers don't have the skills
to realise that.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

TfL to possibly buy 200 extra New Bus for London
 

Neil Williams wrote:
On 2014-10-31 10:30:44 +0000, Roland Perry said:

As such vehicles probably have ABS, I don't see how ASC is an
improvement as far as braking is concerned.

The statement wasn't in favour of ASC, it was comparing the braking of a
large 4x4 to a normal car, it's not as much different as some new drivers of 4x4s think.

The other issue is that a 4WD vehicle doesn't need to brake at every
corner, like a pathologically understeering FWD car might, so
powering-round can be just as good a way to avoid the ditch.

True, however again these Chelsea tractor drivers don't have the skills to realise that.

I wonder if HDC helps?

TfL to possibly buy 200 extra New Bus for London
 

In message
-septem
ber.org, at 10:47:48 on Fri, 31 Oct 2014, Recliner
remarked:
As such vehicles probably have ABS, I don't see how ASC is an
improvement as far as braking is concerned.

The statement wasn't in favour of ASC, it was comparing the braking of a
large 4x4 to a normal car, it's not as much different as some new drivers of 4x4s think.

The other issue is that a 4WD vehicle doesn't need to brake at every
corner, like a pathologically understeering FWD car might, so
powering-round can be just as good a way to avoid the ditch.

True, however again these Chelsea tractor drivers don't have the skills to realise that.

I wonder if HDC helps?

It's a sort of "minimum speed cruise control" using ABS. I'm sure it
helps the same sort of driver who invokes ABS on a 2WD car.
--
Roland Perry

TfL to possibly buy 200 extra New Bus for London
 

In message , at 10:44:04 on Fri, 31
Oct 2014, Neil Williams remarked:
I see even more FWD cars stuck.

Have you considered that that might be because there *are* more FWD
cars, as only premium cars these days are RWD? I see a
disproportionate number of RWD premium cars (Mercs, BMWs etc) stuck
compared with the general number of these on the road.

That's probably the fashion-accessory wide tyres rather than RWD as
such.
--
Roland Perry