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One faulty train at Hoxton has knocked out the entire Highbury-New
Cross-Clapham-West Croydon-Crystal Place network. E. |
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on the line. As trains run at about six minutes intervals on that stretch, this would involve very smart working. My guess is that L.O. will consider it more trouble than it's worth. |
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On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 10:21:13 +0100
Robin9 wrote: 'eastender[_5_ Wrote: ;147051']One faulty train at Hoxton has knocked out the entire Highbury-New Cross-Clapham-West Croydon-Crystal Place network. E. . . . which suggests that they need a turn-round capability or two elsewhere on the line. As trains run at about six minutes intervals on that stretch, this would involve very smart working. My guess is that L.O. will consider it more trouble than it's worth. How much hassle it is for them should be irrelevant. Convenience for the travelling public should be their first and foremost priority. But thats obviously in an ideal world, the real world where people can't be arsed is another matter. -- Spud |
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On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 10:21:13 +0100 Robin9 wrote: 'eastender[_5_ Wrote: ;147051']One faulty train at Hoxton has knocked out the entire Highbury-New Cross-Clapham-West Croydon-Crystal Place network. E. . . . which suggests that they need a turn-round capability or two elsewhere on the line. As trains run at about six minutes intervals on that stretch, this would involve very smart working. My guess is that L.O. will consider it more trouble than it's worth. How much hassle it is for them should be irrelevant. Convenience for the travelling public should be their first and foremost priority. But thats obviously in an ideal world, the real world where people can't be arsed is another matter. It would probably be more useful to either reduce the chances of a fault grounding a train, or making it easier for another train to rescue it. |
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On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 12:50:34 -0000
"Robin" wrote: wrote: How much hassle it is for them should be irrelevant. Convenience for the travelling public should be their first and foremost priority. But thats obviously in an ideal world, the real world where people can't be arsed is another matter. I had assumed that "trouble" was shorthand for "significant works requiring corresponding funds for both capital and on-going, current expenditure". If so, I am one London taxpayer and traveller who is glad they don't take a "money no object" approach. If there are no sets of reversing points between new cross and dalston junction them someone ****ed up badly in the track design and they need to put some in in case this sort of thing happens again. -- Spud |
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On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 12:50:34 -0000 "Robin" wrote: d wrote: How much hassle it is for them should be irrelevant. Convenience for the travelling public should be their first and foremost priority. But thats obviously in an ideal world, the real world where people can't be arsed is another matter. I had assumed that "trouble" was shorthand for "significant works requiring corresponding funds for both capital and on-going, current expenditure". If so, I am one London taxpayer and traveller who is glad they don't take a "money no object" approach. If there are no sets of reversing points between new cross and dalston junction them someone ****ed up badly in the track design and they need to put some in in case this sort of thing happens again. I think there's crossovers at Shadwell and Canada Water. |
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On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 16:02:12 +0000
Paul Corfield wrote: Clearly there are several places where there are crossovers but the intensity of the service is such that you'd probably have trains at I'm not sure I'd describe the service as "intense". One train every 3 to 5 minutes (in reality, never mind the timetable) is hardly at victoria line levels. The other difficulty will be the ripple effect if Overground trains are forced to sit still on shared sections of track thereby buggering up Southern and South Eastern services into London Bridge / Victoria / Blackfriars. Services into London Bridge are regularly a complete disaster and that has transferred vast numbers on to London Overground and Jubilee Line services. Was a stupid idea to extend onto NR tracks anyway as it means the overground timetable is frequently up the bloody spout. One of the reasons I gave up using it along with the nonsensical reversing of 2 out of 3 trains at Dalston so providing a **** poor service to Highbury where 80% of northbound passangers actually want to go. -- Spud |
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On 03/03/2015 18:31, eastender wrote: One faulty train at Hoxton has knocked out the entire Highbury-New Cross-Clapham-West Croydon-Crystal Place network. I received the following email from TfL this afternoon, with the subject of"London Overground services yesterday evening": ---quote--- Dear Mizter T, I am writing to apologise for the major disruption to London Overground services yesterday evening, Tuesday 3 March. Our services were significantly disrupted by a southbound train failure at Hoxton on the Highbury & Islington to Clapham Junction line. As a result, many trains were cancelled or delayed. We are examining the train to find the root cause of the failure and what can be done to prevent such significant disruption happening again. As this fault was within our control, you can apply for a service delay refund. You must do this within the next 13 days. For more information, please visit tfl.gov.uk/refunds Yours sincerely, Mike Stubbs Director London Overground, Transport for London ---quote--- |
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On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 16:35:29 +0000
Mizter T wrote: On 04/03/2015 16:29, d wrote: On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 16:02:12 +0000 Paul Corfield wrote: Clearly there are several places where there are crossovers but the intensity of the service is such that you'd probably have trains at I'm not sure I'd describe the service as "intense". One train every 3 to 5 minutes (in reality, never mind the timetable) is hardly at victoria line levels. The other difficulty will be the ripple effect if Overground trains are forced to sit still on shared sections of track thereby buggering up Southern and South Eastern services into London Bridge / Victoria / Blackfriars. Services into London Bridge are regularly a complete disaster and that has transferred vast numbers on to London Overground and Jubilee Line services. Was a stupid idea to extend onto NR tracks anyway as it means the overground timetable is frequently up the bloody spout. One of the reasons I gave up using it along with the nonsensical reversing of 2 out of 3 trains at Dalston so providing a **** poor service to Highbury where 80% of northbound passangers actually want to go. IME the Overground timetable is not "frequently up the bloody spout". And how often do you use it? I used it every almost every weekday for about a month and the service was appalling. Plus they had a nice habit of running "fast" trains to highbury when the service really was screwed which nicely ****ed over the people who were waiting at Dalston having taken a reverser there. -- Spud |
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On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 16:35:29 +0000 Mizter T wrote: On 04/03/2015 16:29, d wrote: On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 16:02:12 +0000 Paul Corfield wrote: Clearly there are several places where there are crossovers but the intensity of the service is such that you'd probably have trains at I'm not sure I'd describe the service as "intense". One train every 3 to 5 minutes (in reality, never mind the timetable) is hardly at victoria line levels. The other difficulty will be the ripple effect if Overground trains are forced to sit still on shared sections of track thereby buggering up Southern and South Eastern services into London Bridge / Victoria / Blackfriars. Services into London Bridge are regularly a complete disaster and that has transferred vast numbers on to London Overground and Jubilee Line services. Was a stupid idea to extend onto NR tracks anyway as it means the overground timetable is frequently up the bloody spout. One of the reasons I gave up using it along with the nonsensical reversing of 2 out of 3 trains at Dalston so providing a **** poor service to Highbury where 80% of northbound passangers actually want to go. IME the Overground timetable is not "frequently up the bloody spout". And how often do you use it? I used it every almost every weekday for about a month and the service was appalling. Plus they had a nice habit of running "fast" trains to highbury when the service really was screwed which nicely ****ed over the people who were waiting at Dalston having taken a reverser there. I thought you told us you used the quicker Victoria line option? |
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On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 16:53:37 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: Mizter T wrote: IME the Overground timetable is not "frequently up the bloody spout". Indeed, and at 95.5%, it has the joint second highest PPM (punctuality) moving average of all the operators in the country. Its moving average cancellation and significant lateness (CaSL) figure, a measure of reliability, is also one of the best at 1.8% (only c2c, Chiltern and HEx are slightly better). That's not bad, considering that it shares lines with LU, freight and lower performing TOCs. See http://www.networkrail.co.uk/about/performance/ Well if the statistics say its great then obviously I was just imagining waiting 10-15 minutes for a highbury train on numerous occasions or waiting *at* highbury for any train at all. It should have remained a tube line. Linking it into the NR network was just asking for problems. If it was a self contained tube line it could have had a much better service frequency in the central section and since everyone thinks closing the moorgate branch on thameslink was no big deal since everyone can hope on the tube - the same logic applies, right? People from south london could hope out at new cross (gate) and change. -- Spud |
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In article , (Mizter T) wrote:
On 04/03/2015 16:29, d wrote: Was a stupid idea to extend onto NR tracks anyway as it means the overground timetable is frequently up the bloody spout. One of the reasons I gave up using it along with the nonsensical reversing of 2 out of 3 trains at Dalston so providing a **** poor service to Highbury where 80% of northbound passangers actually want to go. IME the Overground timetable is not "frequently up the bloody spout". And isn't it 1 in 2 that reverse at Dalston Junction? -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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In article , (Mizter T) wrote: On 03/03/2015 18:31, eastender wrote: One faulty train at Hoxton has knocked out the entire Highbury-New Cross-Clapham-West Croydon-Crystal Place network. I received the following email from TfL this afternoon, with the subject of"London Overground services yesterday evening": ---quote--- Dear Mizter T, I am writing to apologise for the major disruption to London Overground services yesterday evening, Tuesday 3 March. Our services were significantly disrupted by a southbound train failure at Hoxton on the Highbury & Islington to Clapham Junction line. As a result, many trains were cancelled or delayed. We are examining the train to find the root cause of the failure and what can be done to prevent such significant disruption happening again. As this fault was within our control, you can apply for a service delay refund. You must do this within the next 13 days. For more information, please visit tfl.gov.uk/refunds Yours sincerely, Mike Stubbs Director London Overground, Transport for London ---quote--- How did they know you were affected? Did you email them? I assume it is based on Oyster records? Peter Smyth |
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On 04/03/2015 17:57, wrote: In article , (Mizter T) wrote: On 03/03/2015 18:31, eastender wrote: One faulty train at Hoxton has knocked out the entire Highbury-New Cross-Clapham-West Croydon-Crystal Place network. I received the following email from TfL this afternoon, with the subject of"London Overground services yesterday evening": ---quote--- Dear Mizter T, I am writing to apologise for the major disruption to London Overground services yesterday evening, Tuesday 3 March. Our services were significantly disrupted by a southbound train failure at Hoxton on the Highbury & Islington to Clapham Junction line. As a result, many trains were cancelled or delayed. We are examining the train to find the root cause of the failure and what can be done to prevent such significant disruption happening again. As this fault was within our control, you can apply for a service delay refund. You must do this within the next 13 days. For more information, please visit tfl.gov.uk/refunds Yours sincerely, Mike Stubbs Director London Overground, Transport for London ---quote--- How did they know you were affected? Did you email them? No - and I wasn't affected. I should have said, it was sent to the email address registered with my Oyster/contactless online account. I assume my travel history flagged me up as a user - similar targetted mailshots happens with other disruptions and sometimes planned works too on other lines or bus routes. |
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On Wednesday, 4 March 2015 17:22:31 UTC, wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 16:53:37 +0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: Mizter T wrote: IME the Overground timetable is not "frequently up the bloody spout". Indeed, and at 95.5%, it has the joint second highest PPM (punctuality) moving average of all the operators in the country. Its moving average cancellation and significant lateness (CaSL) figure, a measure of reliability, is also one of the best at 1.8% (only c2c, Chiltern and HEx are slightly better). That's not bad, considering that it shares lines with LU, freight and lower performing TOCs. See http://www.networkrail.co.uk/about/performance/ Well if the statistics say its great then obviously I was just imagining waiting 10-15 minutes for a highbury train on numerous occasions or waiting *at* highbury for any train at all. It should have remained a tube line. Linking it into the NR network was just asking for problems. If it was a self contained tube line it could have had a much better service frequency in the central section and since everyone thinks closing the moorgate branch on thameslink was no big deal since everyone can hope on the tube - the same logic applies, right? People from south london could hope out at new cross (gate) and change. 1. It was an infrequent, slow "tube" line. Without the extra passengers gained by extra destinations there'd have been no justification for increased frequency - new routes open up latent demand. 2. If it was rebranded back to London Underground, it wouldn't magically speed up. It's an old and slow route, quite similar to parts of the District Line really. 2. People wouldn't change in massive numbers at New Cross Gate - they didn't to the old East London Line. 3. Even if they did, New Cross Gate station wouldn't be able to cope with that amount of interchange (even after rebuilding is complete) 4. Capacity and number of services at London Bridge are very reduced until 2018. Overground via Canada Water has become the common route for stations between Norwood Junction and New Cross Gate. That's not just passenger choice - in the peaks the London Bridge service to these stations is now next to non-existent. (There isn't a single southbound non-Overground train at Sydenham between 16:20 and 18:20, for example.) 5. We've really done this one to death now, surely? |
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In message
-septem ber.org, Recliner wrote: If there are no sets of reversing points between new cross and dalston junction them someone ****ed up badly in the track design and they need to put some in in case this sort of thing happens again. I think there's crossovers at Shadwell and Canada Water. There is a scissors crossover at the south end of the central two platforms of Dalston Junction and another between there and Haggerston. Then there's a third at the north end of Shadwell and a fourth at the south end of Canada Water. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
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On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 17:16:41 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: And how often do you use it? I used it every almost every weekday for about a month and the service was appalling. Plus they had a nice habit of running "fast" trains to highbury when the service really was screwed which nicely ****ed over the people who were waiting at Dalston having taken a reverser there. I thought you told us you used the quicker Victoria line option? I do now, though when the jubilee line is up the spout like it was 2 nights ago its back to the DLR and Overground again so I still experience the joy of the ELL from time to time. -- Spud |
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On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 10:52:20 -0800 (PST)
Mark wrote: On Wednesday, 4 March 2015 17:22:31 UTC, wrote: It should have remained a tube line. Linking it into the NR network was just asking for problems. If it was a self contained tube line it could have had a much better service frequency in the central section and since everyone thinks closing the moorgate branch on thameslink was no big deal since everyone can hope on the tube - the same logic applies, right? People from south london could hope out at new cross (gate) and change. 1. It was an infrequent, slow "tube" line. Without the extra passengers gained by extra destinations there'd have been no justification for increased frequency - new routes open up latent demand. I'm not suggesting it should have been pickled and left. If could still have been extended to north to highbury and south queens road as a tube line and whats more it could have been converted to ATO so allowing very high frequencies. 2. If it was rebranded back to London Underground, it wouldn't magically speed up. It's an old and slow route, quite similar to parts of the District Line really. The track has been more or less completely relaid throughout the length of the old ELL. The only reason the service is slow is the semi comatose drivers that seem to be employed on it. They'll close the doors. Wait up to 10 seconds for god knows what, then slooooowly pull away at a snails pace. 2. People wouldn't change in massive numbers at New Cross Gate - they didn't to the old East London Line. They would if it was a much more frequent service to canada water. 3. Even if they did, New Cross Gate station wouldn't be able to cope with that amount of interchange (even after rebuilding is complete) Well that might be a fair point, I don't know, I've never been there. 4. Capacity and number of services at London Bridge are very reduced until 2018. Overground via Canada Water has become the common route for stations between Norwood Junction and New Cross Gate. That's not just passenger choice - in the peaks the London Bridge service to these stations is now next to non-existent. (There isn't a single southbound non-Overground train at Sydenham between 16:20 and 18:20, for example.) National Rails engineering works are irrelevant in this context since they had no bearing on the ELL conversion to overground. 5. We've really done this one to death now, surely? Well this is usenet. -- Spud |
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On Thu, 05 Mar 2015 11:56:39 +0000
David Cantrell wrote: On Wed, Mar 04, 2015 at 04:29:23PM +0000, d wrote: Was a stupid idea to extend onto NR tracks anyway Those of us who live south of New Cross disagree. You have more than enough railways in south london. You didn't need another route. as it means the overground timetable is frequently up the bloody spout. One of the reasons I gave up using it along with the nonsensical reversing of 2 out of 3 trains at Dalston so providing a **** poor service to Highbury where 80% of northbound passangers actually want to go. 80% of northbound passengers don't even want to go as far as Dalston. From canada water they do. -- Spud |
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On 2015\03\04 18:52, Mark wrote:
2. People wouldn't change in massive numbers at New Cross Gate - they didn't to the old East London Line. 3. Even if they did, New Cross Gate station wouldn't be able to cope with that amount of interchange (even after rebuilding is complete) 4. Capacity and number of services at London Bridge are very reduced until 2018. Overground via Canada Water has become the common route for stations between Norwood Junction and New Cross Gate. That's not just passenger choice - in the peaks the London Bridge service to these stations is now next to non-existent. (There isn't a single southbound non-Overground train at Sydenham between 16:20 and 18:20, for example.) Wow. I'm surprised New Cross Gate station can cope with that amount of interchange. |
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On 05/03/2015 22:48, Basil Jet wrote: On 2015\03\04 18:52, Mark wrote: 2. People wouldn't change in massive numbers at New Cross Gate - they didn't to the old East London Line. 3. Even if they did, New Cross Gate station wouldn't be able to cope with that amount of interchange (even after rebuilding is complete) 4. Capacity and number of services at London Bridge are very reduced until 2018. Overground via Canada Water has become the common route for stations between Norwood Junction and New Cross Gate. That's not just passenger choice - in the peaks the London Bridge service to these stations is now next to non-existent. (There isn't a single southbound non-Overground train at Sydenham between 16:20 and 18:20, for example.) Wow. I'm surprised New Cross Gate station can cope with that amount of interchange. There's been significant works at NXG (Mark refers to the 'rebuilding' above) - new footbridge and lifts etc, which have provided some breathing space: http://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/new-cross-gate/ |
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On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 11:42:22 +0000
David Cantrell wrote: On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 09:24:08AM +0000, d wrote: I'm not suggesting it should have been pickled and left. If could still have been extended to north to highbury and south queens road as a tube line and whats more it could have been converted to ATO so allowing very high frequencies. I don't see much benefit from having another one station branch down to As a standalone line no, but if considered as a feed line off the southern network then it makes sense. Queens Road. You'd pretty much have to close one of either New Cross or New Cross Gate at least. But which one? If you only consider the ELL then it's obviously silly to have both of them, but when you look at the network as a whole, they allow easy changes onto two different routes further south. The DLR has many different branches but the ATO copes there. I'm sure it could have managed on an ELL with this layout. -- Spud |
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On 03.03.15 18:31, eastender wrote:
One faulty train at Hoxton has knocked out the entire Highbury-New Cross-Clapham-West Croydon-Crystal Place network. E. Whinge, whinge, whinge. BTW, there is additional weekend engineering works on the ELL this weekend. Perhaps you would want to take a minute to find out the details this time round, rather than complaining on this forum. |
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Water instead of closing the entire line down? |
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On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 16:32:05 +0000
" wrote: On 03.03.15 18:31, eastender wrote: One faulty train at Hoxton has knocked out the entire Highbury-New Cross-Clapham-West Croydon-Crystal Place network. E. Whinge, whinge, whinge. BTW, there is additional weekend engineering works on the ELL this weekend. Perhaps you would want to take a minute to find out the details this time round, rather than complaining on this forum. Was the broken down train part of some engineering works then? -- Spud |
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On 06.03.15 18:10, eastender wrote:
On 2015-03-06 16:32:05 +0000, said: On 03.03.15 18:31, eastender wrote: One faulty train at Hoxton has knocked out the entire Highbury-New Cross-Clapham-West Croydon-Crystal Place network. E. Whinge, whinge, whinge. BTW, there is additional weekend engineering works on the ELL this weekend. Perhaps you would want to take a minute to find out the details this time round, rather than complaining on this forum. Clearly you've got nothing to do other than troll about on the internet. Me - I just want to get from A to B. E. Harsh words! You have no idea what I am doing on this forum, so why don't you not jump to conclusions and go whinge elsewhere and contact TfL for travel information? |
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In message , at 16:32:05 on Fri, 6 Mar 2015,
" remarked: Perhaps you would want to take a minute to find out the details this time round, rather than complaining on this forum. This is a newsgroup. -- Roland Perry |
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On 2015-03-06 20:06:01 +0000, Mizter T said:
On 06/03/2015 18:33, wrote: On 06.03.15 18:10, eastender wrote: [...] One faulty train at Hoxton has knocked out the entire Highbury-New Cross-Clapham-West Croydon-Crystal Place network. Whinge, whinge, whinge. BTW, there is additional weekend engineering works on the ELL this weekend. Perhaps you would want to take a minute to find out the details this time round, rather than complaining on this forum. Clearly you've got nothing to do other than troll about on the internet. Me - I just want to get from A to B. Harsh words! You have no idea what I am doing on this forum, so why don't you not jump to conclusions and go whinge elsewhere and contact TfL for travel information? Easy... we don't need to be like that on here. I don't see why posting about a failed train and the knock-on effects is out of scope of this newsgroup. Well exactly. In fact the earler post he (I presume it's a he) was moaning about wasn't explicit - the NCG to West Croydon closure was decribed as a Southern Services closure and didn't mention the ELL at all. You'd have to know they run on the same tracks. E. |
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On 07.03.15 10:53, eastender wrote:
On 2015-03-06 20:06:01 +0000, Mizter T said: On 06/03/2015 18:33, wrote: On 06.03.15 18:10, eastender wrote: [...] One faulty train at Hoxton has knocked out the entire Highbury-New Cross-Clapham-West Croydon-Crystal Place network. Whinge, whinge, whinge. BTW, there is additional weekend engineering works on the ELL this weekend. Perhaps you would want to take a minute to find out the details this time round, rather than complaining on this forum. Clearly you've got nothing to do other than troll about on the internet. Me - I just want to get from A to B. Harsh words! You have no idea what I am doing on this forum, so why don't you not jump to conclusions and go whinge elsewhere and contact TfL for travel information? Easy... we don't need to be like that on here. I don't see why posting about a failed train and the knock-on effects is out of scope of this newsgroup. Well exactly. In fact the earler post he (I presume it's a he) was moaning about wasn't explicit - the NCG to West Croydon closure was decribed as a Southern Services closure and didn't mention the ELL at all. You'd have to know they run on the same tracks. E. Actually, I have been on all of the ELL, okay? So don't tell me what I know and don't know. |
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Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 20:06:01 +0000, Mizter T wrote: Easy... we don't need to be like that on here. I don't see why posting about a failed train and the knock-on effects is out of scope of this newsgroup. I agree - I really don't understand what has triggered this bout of "posting rage" from two normally very "placid" and polite posters. Most odd. And no one has to reply to try to justify their respective positions as I don't want to read yet more backbiting. One question about the actual incident: do you know how long the ELL was completely shut down? If it was for just a matter of minutes, then it's not surprising they didn't reverse the services at a crossover, but if it was hours, then that's a different matter. |
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Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 7 Mar 2015 21:25:52 +0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 20:06:01 +0000, Mizter T wrote: Easy... we don't need to be like that on here. I don't see why posting about a failed train and the knock-on effects is out of scope of this newsgroup. I agree - I really don't understand what has triggered this bout of "posting rage" from two normally very "placid" and polite posters. Most odd. And no one has to reply to try to justify their respective positions as I don't want to read yet more backbiting. One question about the actual incident: do you know how long the ELL was completely shut down? If it was for just a matter of minutes, then it's not surprising they didn't reverse the services at a crossover, but if it was hours, then that's a different matter. I don't have access to incident info. I believe it happened in the AM peak or towards the end of it. Trains are full to overflowing from the south and not exactly quiet elsewhere. As I have said before I expect the tactic is to say the line is suspended to deter more people turning up for trains. Then the process will be to get trains into platforms if they are not already there. This is to reduce the risk of people being stuck in the tunnel if there then is a need to evacuate trains. Given the intensity of the ELL service and the relative closeness of stations I'd imagine they'd have trains in platforms pretty much within a couple of minutes. The next tactic will be to determine what is wrong with the train and whether it has to be "reset" or detrained and returned to depot - assuming, of course, it can be moved. The other problem on the ELL is that many of the platforms are narrow and not very long and egress is limited at the older stops. Therefore you can't keep emptying trains at such stations to reverse them - assuming you have line capacity to run them somewhere else. I'm obviously guessing here but there are not many refuge sidings on the ELL core section so you really need to get trains beyond Surrey Quays to be able to hide them away somewhere. The alternative is to keep them stopped until the conked out train moves. Thanks, that all makes good sense. I wonder how much redundancy the 4-car 378s have that would minimise the risk of a total breakdown? For example, I know a lot of effort went into ensuring that the Pendos were carefully designed to minimise this risk, with just about everything duplicated, aircraft-style. |
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