In message , at 23:32:46 on Sun, 31 May
2015, Mizter T remarked:
FWIW, Stansted has the highest percentage share for public transport in
terms of surface access (i.e. getting to or from the airport not in a
plane!).

That's easily explained by the train service only (to all intents and
purposes) being to London, and therefore most of the catchment area
simply "has" to drive.
--
Roland Perry

In message
-septem
ber.org, at 08:10:15 on Mon, 1 Jun 2015, Recliner
remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-septem
ber.org, at 07:18:50 on Mon, 1 Jun 2015, Recliner
remarked:
I've never heard any suggestion that HEx will extend past Paddington.
Every Crossrail map in years has shown service to T4, not T5.

We aren't talking about Crossrail - this is HEx services after 2023.

If HEx is to continue running fast, non-stop to Paddington on the main
lines, it won't have access to the Crossrail tunnels will it? And if HEx
does use the relief lines and run through London, it will presumably have
to stop at all the PED-equipped tunnel stations, which means having trains
with the same door spacing as the 345s (and no first class?). On that
basis, how could HEx, with no speed or comfort advantage, charge higher
fares than Crossrail?

On the charges issue, they'd be offering a quicker ride from Heathrow to
docklands than Crossrail.

How so?

By running non-stop (modulo Old Oak Common) from Heathrow to Paddington.

It won't be able to use the main lines to the tunnels would it, and
wouldn't be able to run fast and non-stop on the relief lines. And where
would the paths for this come from?

Also offering a through trip from T5, avoiding a change of train which
will be required for Crossrail.

True, but would this be instead of, or in addition to, the Paddington
service?

Instead of.

It would presumably need to use the same class 345 trains as Crossrail, so
that the performance, signalling and door spacing was identical.

Won't the signalling need to be the same so they can share the line from
Airport Junction to the airport with Crossrail trains?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message -septem
ber.org, at 08:10:15 on Mon, 1 Jun 2015, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message -septem
ber.org, at 07:18:50 on Mon, 1 Jun 2015, Recliner
remarked:
I've never heard any suggestion that HEx will extend past Paddington.
Every Crossrail map in years has shown service to T4, not T5.

We aren't talking about Crossrail - this is HEx services after 2023.

If HEx is to continue running fast, non-stop to Paddington on the main
lines, it won't have access to the Crossrail tunnels will it? And if HEx
does use the relief lines and run through London, it will presumably have
to stop at all the PED-equipped tunnel stations, which means having trains
with the same door spacing as the 345s (and no first class?). On that
basis, how could HEx, with no speed or comfort advantage, charge higher
fares than Crossrail?

On the charges issue, they'd be offering a quicker ride from Heathrow to
docklands than Crossrail.

How so?

By running non-stop (modulo Old Oak Common) from Heathrow to Paddington.

It won't be able to use the main lines to the tunnels would it, and
wouldn't be able to run fast and non-stop on the relief lines. And where
would the paths for this come from?

Also offering a through trip from T5, avoiding a change of train which
will be required for Crossrail.

True, but would this be instead of, or in addition to, the Paddington
service?

Instead of.

So no Heathrow trains to the Mainline Paddington station?


It would presumably need to use the same class 345 trains as Crossrail, so
that the performance, signalling and door spacing was identical.

Won't the signalling need to be the same so they can share the line from
Airport Junction to the airport with Crossrail trains?

No, that'll be conventional signalling with manual driving, as on the other
surface tracks used by Crossrail. In the tunnels, the trains will use ATO.

The trains will all have to have the same door spacing and performance, so
the only realistic option is more class 345 trains. Other than in the
Heathrow section, they will have to carry normal Crossrail pax at normal
Crossrail prices. In other words, they will just be normal Crossrail trains
to T5, presumably all standard class.

In effect, what you're really suggesting is the abandonment of HEX and its
premium pricing, with both T4 and T5 having normal 4tph Crossrail services?
Personally, I think this will happen, particularly when the western rail
link opens, if the Heathrow Crossrail services run through, back on to the
GWML.

In message , at 00:15:41 on
Mon, 1 Jun 2015, Paul Corfield remarked:
If you were HAL you would have wanted guarantees about the revenue due
to you so you could pay off the debt incurred in constructing the
tunnels into Heathrow. I believe the agreement runs to 2023 when the
debt should be clear. Goodness knows what happens then.

I suspect that Heathrow will come properly "into the Zones", but HEx
will be allowed to run trains through the core, at least as far as
docklands (or Stratford if that's a more logical place to reverse them).

I can't see that happening at all. I also would not be surprised if
there are legal restrictions in the Crossrail agreements that prevent
services other than those franchised by TfL from running through the
tunnels.

HEx amd a £230m contribution towards Crossrail, and are letting
Crossrail use "their" platforms and access vis airport junction. I would
not find it surprising if some concessions went in the other direction
(and they'd be paying Crossrail track access charges too).

I'd also found this article:

24 March 2011

Airport operator BAA chief executive Colin Matthews this week
threw his weight behind plans to run Heathrow Express services
through Crossrail’s central London tunnels.

He said he was backing the idea of extending the dedicated
Heathrow services east from their current Paddington terminus
and into the tunnels being constructed for Crossrail, "with
maximum enthusiasm".

The plan was outlined by Network Rail in its London and the
South East route utilisation study late last year.
Network Rail believes this would also remove the need for many
passengers travelling between Heathrow and central London to
change trains at Paddington.

BAA had previously campaigned against calls to dovetail Heathrow
Express with Crossrail. It objected to the legislation that
authorised the line, fearing that the Department for Transport
could take over the Express service.

However, Matthews told a Westminster Energy, Environment &
Transport Forum event last week that BAA now backs the idea.

"The opportunity of Heathrow Express going forward with
Crossrail, to make sure you can get from Heathrow not just to
Paddington but to other destinations in London, is going to be
great," he said.

--
Roland Perry

In message
-septem
ber.org, at 08:38:30 on Mon, 1 Jun 2015, Recliner
remarked:

In effect, what you're really suggesting is the abandonment of HEX and its
premium pricing, with both T4 and T5 having normal 4tph Crossrail services?

No, the premium pricing will arise from non-stopping between the airport
and Paddington (all trains then to go through the core).

Personally, I think this will happen, particularly when the western rail
link opens, if the Heathrow Crossrail services run through, back on to the
GWML.

HEx also have plans to run to Reading (and possibly beyond).
--
Roland Perry

On 01/06/2015 03:45, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

You're probably getting confused with the *non visitor* (i.e. regular)
Oyster cards, which IIRC initially came without pre-loaded credit but
that later changed, and were available from standalone vending machines
in a few Tube stations - this arrangement doesn't exist any more as
regular Oyster cards can now be obtained from the larger sized Tube TVMs.

Other than the graphic and initial loading, is there any functional difference
between a regular and visitor Oyster card?


Yes. There's no deposit so (I think) you actually own the Visitor Oyster
card and can't return it, and you can't add season Travelcards or Bus
Passes to it, nor load any concession (e.g. Railcard discount, the Bus &
Tram Discount card for those who qualify).

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 00:15:41 on
Mon, 1 Jun 2015, Paul Corfield remarked:
If you were HAL you would have wanted guarantees about the revenue due
to you so you could pay off the debt incurred in constructing the
tunnels into Heathrow. I believe the agreement runs to 2023 when the
debt should be clear. Goodness knows what happens then.

I suspect that Heathrow will come properly "into the Zones", but HEx
will be allowed to run trains through the core, at least as far as
docklands (or Stratford if that's a more logical place to reverse them).

I can't see that happening at all. I also would not be surprised if
there are legal restrictions in the Crossrail agreements that prevent
services other than those franchised by TfL from running through the
tunnels.

HEx amd a £230m contribution towards Crossrail, and are letting
Crossrail use "their" platforms and access vis airport junction. I would
not find it surprising if some concessions went in the other direction
(and they'd be paying Crossrail track access charges too).

I'd also found this article:

24 March 2011

Airport operator BAA chief executive Colin Matthews this week
threw his weight behind plans to run Heathrow Express services
through Crossrail’s central London tunnels.

He said he was backing the idea of extending the dedicated
Heathrow services east from their current Paddington terminus
and into the tunnels being constructed for Crossrail, "with
maximum enthusiasm".

The plan was outlined by Network Rail in its London and the
South East route utilisation study late last year.
Network Rail believes this would also remove the need for many
passengers travelling between Heathrow and central London to
change trains at Paddington.

BAA had previously campaigned against calls to dovetail Heathrow
Express with Crossrail. It objected to the legislation that
authorised the line, fearing that the Department for Transport
could take over the Express service.

However, Matthews told a Westminster Energy, Environment &
Transport Forum event last week that BAA now backs the idea.

"The opportunity of Heathrow Express going forward with
Crossrail, to make sure you can get from Heathrow not just to
Paddington but to other destinations in London, is going to be
great," he said.

I see that was over four years ago, and even then, it was no more than an
idea. I wonder if it's progressed at all since then? Obviously, HAL
requires to be compensated for access to its tunnels, but beyond that, I
wonder if it's that bothered whether it maintains a separate premium
service or co-sponsors an all-Crossrail service, which would be a lot less
confusing for pax.

The only people who'd lose out would be the ones who specifically wanted to
get from Paddington to T5 as quickly as possible, preferably in First. Most
other passengers would get a better service, with fewer changes and
possibly lower fares to Heathrow.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message -septem
ber.org, at 08:38:30 on Mon, 1 Jun 2015, Recliner remarked:

In effect, what you're really suggesting is the abandonment of HEX and its
premium pricing, with both T4 and T5 having normal 4tph Crossrail services?

No, the premium pricing will arise from non-stopping between the airport
and Paddington (all trains then to go through the core).

But how will it access the Crossrail tunnels from the main lines, without a
flat crossing?

Personally, I think this will happen, particularly when the western rail
link opens, if the Heathrow Crossrail services run through, back on to the
GWML.

HEx also have plans to run to Reading (and possibly beyond).

I suppose if only HEx goes to T5, it makes sense to brand the western
services as HEx, too.

In message
-septem
ber.org, at 09:31:35 on Mon, 1 Jun 2015, Recliner
remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-septem
ber.org, at 08:38:30 on Mon, 1 Jun 2015, Recliner
remarked:

In effect, what you're really suggesting is the abandonment of HEX and its
premium pricing, with both T4 and T5 having normal 4tph Crossrail services?

No, the premium pricing will arise from non-stopping between the airport
and Paddington (all trains then to go through the core).

But how will it access the Crossrail tunnels from the main lines, without a
flat crossing?

Perhaps we need to ask Network Rail (ie look at the RUS mentioned in an
earlier posting of mine).

Personally, I think this will happen, particularly when the western rail
link opens, if the Heathrow Crossrail services run through, back on to the
GWML.

HEx also have plans to run to Reading (and possibly beyond).

I suppose if only HEx goes to T5, it makes sense to brand the western
services as HEx, too.

--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at 23:43:20 on Sun, 31 May
2015, Mizter T remarked:
I think a lot more Londoners would use it if no separate tickets
were required. It would also be easier to sell pre-paid Visitor
Oyster cards if they already came loaded with enough credit to pay
for the journey to London plus some more travelling in London.

I agree, the visitor cards with not enough credit on to be useful are
a bit of a mystery.

Remind us how much credit is included?

£3 and no deposit, so enough to make one single journey, and top it up
when you want to make a seconds - which makes some sense because it
moves the queues away from the terminus stations.

Where do you get £3 from Roland? They all come with £10 credit at
least:

https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/visiting-london/visitor-oyster-card

You're probably getting confused with the *non visitor* (i.e. regular)
Oyster cards, which IIRC initially came without pre-loaded credit but
that later changed, and were available from standalone vending machines
in a few Tube stations - this arrangement doesn't exist any more as
regular Oyster cards can now be obtained from the larger sized Tube TVMs.

Yes, I probably have conflated a couple of former schemes. I saw
vending machines at St Pancras, and on reflection they were probably
£10 with a £3 deposit included.

Isn't the deposit £5 these days?

--
Colin Rosenstiel