On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 17:05:17 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message
-septe
mber.org, at 16:05:51 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Recliner
remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:07:19 on
Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Recliner remarked:

People also complain about the earlier Victoria-Picc connection. There
must be something in the way to stop it dropping down halfway along.

http://husk.org/www.geocities.com/at.../ltgreenpk.gif

I think the 'thing' is the expensive buildings north of Piccadilly.
It's much easier, cheaper and safer to build station tunnels under a
(literally) green park than large buildings.

The Piccadilly Line platforms will be under the road, so the "thing" is
also under the road, towards the western end of the platforms.

No, the issue is that the current station building is linked by single
long escalators to Piccadilly line platforms that used to be under a
different surface building directly above the line, linked by lifts.

** see below

So the Picc platforms are under the road, but well to the east of the
current station building.

The Victoria line came next, at approximately right angles to the
east-west Piccadilly line, and the platforms were placed just south of
the road, for ease of construction. The escalators link to the
platforms about a third of the way along (which is better than
connecting to the extreme ends of the platforms, which is what happens
with the Piccadilly line).

The subsequent Jubilee line platforms are below and just to the east
of the Victoria platforms. Of course, if they'd known then about the
later change of route, with the new line not needing to swing so far
east, the Jubilee line might have had a very different configuration
at Green Park, with the platforms parallel to the Victoria line. They
might even have delivered cross-platform interchange with the Victoria
line, as at, say Baker Street.

But the Picc platforms are so far to the east of the station, that
there's no good way of connecting new north-south platforms to both
the station building and the Piccadilly platforms to the east.

None of that explains why...

But they could nevertheless have started the passage between them
further to the western end of the Piccadilly line platforms.

...the passages from the two new stations don't head for the bottom of
the Piccadilly escalators, rather than the eastern ends of the platforms
which is what creates the excessively long walks.

I wonder if that was to avoid congestion on the platforms, which also have
to act as the route to the escalators? This way, people heading to the
passage to the Victoria line aren't mixed in with people heading for the
exit.

Such matters don't appear to bother the designers of other stations.

But... ** the "thing" might be the old lift shafts, the space taken up
by which, for some reason, they declined to re-use.

No, the old Dover Street station lift shafts will be over the Piccadilly
platforms

The "thing" I'm trying to identify is also above the Piccadilly
platforms.

-- you can work out where they must be from the location of the
old station at Dover St.

The space occupied by the "thing" is very likely under the junction
between Dover St and Piccadilly (which makes a lift shaft less likely).

But I presume that the Piccadilly line escalator
motor rooms must be below the line, so the Victoria line needed to run
further to the west, to be well clear of the escalators and their
equipment. It was probably easier to build the new line to run almost
directly under the existing station building. That minimised the length of
escalators, and meant that the station construction activity wasn't
directly under someone else's property.

You are still fixated upon the position of the Victoria Line. What I'm
interested in is why the passageway from the Victoria to Piccadilly
doesn't emerge at the western end of the latter's platforms. And later,
the same for the Jubilee.

Another thought strikes me: I wonder if the Picc platform exits and
stairs to the long passages to the Victoria and Jubilee lines are the
re-used original exits and stairs to the old Dover St station lower
lift landing? They seem to be in the right place for that, and
re-using them would have saved disruption to the Piccadilly line
platforms when the station was extended for the new lines.

In article ,
(Recliner) wrote:

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 17:05:17 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message

-septembe
r.org, at 16:05:51 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Recliner
remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:07:19
on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Recliner remarked:

People also complain about the earlier Victoria-Picc connection.
There must be something in the way to stop it dropping down
halfway along.


http://husk.org/www.geocities.com/at.../ltgreenpk.gif

I think the 'thing' is the expensive buildings north of Piccadilly.
It's much easier, cheaper and safer to build station tunnels under
a (literally) green park than large buildings.

The Piccadilly Line platforms will be under the road, so the "thing"
is also under the road, towards the western end of the platforms.

No, the issue is that the current station building is linked by
single long escalators to Piccadilly line platforms that used to be
under a different surface building directly above the line, linked by
lifts.

** see below

So the Picc platforms are under the road, but well to the east of the
current station building.

The Victoria line came next, at approximately right angles to the
east-west Piccadilly line, and the platforms were placed just south
of the road, for ease of construction. The escalators link to the
platforms about a third of the way along (which is better than
connecting to the extreme ends of the platforms, which is what
happens with the Piccadilly line).

The subsequent Jubilee line platforms are below and just to the east
of the Victoria platforms. Of course, if they'd known then about the
later change of route, with the new line not needing to swing so far
east, the Jubilee line might have had a very different configuration
at Green Park, with the platforms parallel to the Victoria line. They
might even have delivered cross-platform interchange with the
Victoria line, as at, say Baker Street.

But the Picc platforms are so far to the east of the station, that
there's no good way of connecting new north-south platforms to both
the station building and the Piccadilly platforms to the east.

None of that explains why...

But they could nevertheless have started the passage between them
further to the western end of the Piccadilly line platforms.

...the passages from the two new stations don't head for the bottom of
the Piccadilly escalators, rather than the eastern ends of the
platforms which is what creates the excessively long walks.

I wonder if that was to avoid congestion on the platforms, which also
have to act as the route to the escalators? This way, people heading to
the passage to the Victoria line aren't mixed in with people heading for
the exit.

Such matters don't appear to bother the designers of other stations.

But... ** the "thing" might be the old lift shafts, the space taken
up by which, for some reason, they declined to re-use.

No, the old Dover Street station lift shafts will be over the Piccadilly
platforms

The "thing" I'm trying to identify is also above the Piccadilly
platforms.

Not exactly. See below.

-- you can work out where they must be from the location of the
old station at Dover St.

The space occupied by the "thing" is very likely under the junction
between Dover St and Piccadilly (which makes a lift shaft less likely).

But I presume that the Piccadilly line escalator
motor rooms must be below the line, so the Victoria line needed to run
further to the west, to be well clear of the escalators and their
equipment. It was probably easier to build the new line to run almost
directly under the existing station building. That minimised the length
of escalators, and meant that the station construction activity wasn't
directly under someone else's property.

You are still fixated upon the position of the Victoria Line. What I'm
interested in is why the passageway from the Victoria to Piccadilly
doesn't emerge at the western end of the latter's platforms. And later,
the same for the Jubilee.

Another thought strikes me: I wonder if the Picc platform exits and
stairs to the long passages to the Victoria and Jubilee lines are the
re-used original exits and stairs to the old Dover St station lower
lift landing? They seem to be in the right place for that, and
re-using them would have saved disruption to the Piccadilly line
platforms when the station was extended for the new lines.

I suspect the geocities diagram tends to confirm that, judging by the Dover
Street substation location shown. The Piccadilly lifts can't have been
directly above the platform tunnels because they are under the road.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 05:34:52
on Fri, 4 Mar 2016, remarked:

The Piccadilly lifts can't have been
directly above the platform tunnels because they are under the road.

I realise that now, but there must be something else in the way.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 04 Mar 2016 05:34:52 -0600,
wrote:

In article ,
(Recliner) wrote:

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 17:05:17 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message

-septembe
r.org, at 16:05:51 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Recliner
remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:07:19
on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Recliner remarked:

People also complain about the earlier Victoria-Picc connection.
There must be something in the way to stop it dropping down
halfway along.


http://husk.org/www.geocities.com/at.../ltgreenpk.gif

I think the 'thing' is the expensive buildings north of Piccadilly.
It's much easier, cheaper and safer to build station tunnels under
a (literally) green park than large buildings.

The Piccadilly Line platforms will be under the road, so the "thing"
is also under the road, towards the western end of the platforms.

No, the issue is that the current station building is linked by
single long escalators to Piccadilly line platforms that used to be
under a different surface building directly above the line, linked by
lifts.

** see below

So the Picc platforms are under the road, but well to the east of the
current station building.

The Victoria line came next, at approximately right angles to the
east-west Piccadilly line, and the platforms were placed just south
of the road, for ease of construction. The escalators link to the
platforms about a third of the way along (which is better than
connecting to the extreme ends of the platforms, which is what
happens with the Piccadilly line).

The subsequent Jubilee line platforms are below and just to the east
of the Victoria platforms. Of course, if they'd known then about the
later change of route, with the new line not needing to swing so far
east, the Jubilee line might have had a very different configuration
at Green Park, with the platforms parallel to the Victoria line. They
might even have delivered cross-platform interchange with the
Victoria line, as at, say Baker Street.

But the Picc platforms are so far to the east of the station, that
there's no good way of connecting new north-south platforms to both
the station building and the Piccadilly platforms to the east.

None of that explains why...

But they could nevertheless have started the passage between them
further to the western end of the Piccadilly line platforms.

...the passages from the two new stations don't head for the bottom of
the Piccadilly escalators, rather than the eastern ends of the
platforms which is what creates the excessively long walks.

I wonder if that was to avoid congestion on the platforms, which also
have to act as the route to the escalators? This way, people heading to
the passage to the Victoria line aren't mixed in with people heading for
the exit.

Such matters don't appear to bother the designers of other stations.

But... ** the "thing" might be the old lift shafts, the space taken
up by which, for some reason, they declined to re-use.

No, the old Dover Street station lift shafts will be over the Piccadilly
platforms

The "thing" I'm trying to identify is also above the Piccadilly
platforms.

Not exactly. See below.

-- you can work out where they must be from the location of the
old station at Dover St.

The space occupied by the "thing" is very likely under the junction
between Dover St and Piccadilly (which makes a lift shaft less likely).

But I presume that the Piccadilly line escalator
motor rooms must be below the line, so the Victoria line needed to run
further to the west, to be well clear of the escalators and their
equipment. It was probably easier to build the new line to run almost
directly under the existing station building. That minimised the length
of escalators, and meant that the station construction activity wasn't
directly under someone else's property.

You are still fixated upon the position of the Victoria Line. What I'm
interested in is why the passageway from the Victoria to Piccadilly
doesn't emerge at the western end of the latter's platforms. And later,
the same for the Jubilee.

Another thought strikes me: I wonder if the Picc platform exits and
stairs to the long passages to the Victoria and Jubilee lines are the
re-used original exits and stairs to the old Dover St station lower
lift landing? They seem to be in the right place for that, and
re-using them would have saved disruption to the Piccadilly line
platforms when the station was extended for the new lines.

I suspect the geocities diagram tends to confirm that, judging by the Dover
Street substation location shown. The Piccadilly lifts can't have been
directly above the platform tunnels because they are under the road.

Yes, they were presumably on the northern side, as is the current
station. I think they re-used the platform exists, stairs, and
over-tunnel passageway, but linked that to the new corridor to the
south of the running tunnels, rather than the 1906 lift landing to the
north.

In message , at 13:28:17 on
Fri, 4 Mar 2016, Recliner remarked:

I suspect the geocities diagram tends to confirm that, judging by the Dover
Street substation location shown. The Piccadilly lifts can't have been
directly above the platform tunnels because they are under the road.

Yes, they were presumably on the northern side, as is the current
station.

Most maps show the station as south, but perhaps that's because it has
the most visible entrance? This one also purports to show the three sets
of platforms, and they look consistent with other diagrams:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?...station#map=19
/51.50673/-0.14206

I think they re-used the platform exists, stairs, and over-tunnel
passageway, but linked that to the new corridor to the south of the
running tunnels, rather than the 1906 lift landing to the north.

Yes, that's what happened, but *why*.

Incidentally I'm still coming up empty trying to find a picture of the
original (pre 1933) Dover Street station exterior. Presumably above the
"Dover Street Shaft".
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:28:17 on
Fri, 4 Mar 2016, Recliner remarked:

I suspect the geocities diagram tends to confirm that, judging by the Dover
Street substation location shown. The Piccadilly lifts can't have been
directly above the platform tunnels because they are under the road.

Yes, they were presumably on the northern side, as is the current
station.

Most maps show the station as south, but perhaps that's because it has
the most visible entrance? This one also purports to show the three sets
of platforms, and they look consistent with other diagrams:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?...station#map=19
/51.50673/-0.14206

I think they re-used the platform exists, stairs, and over-tunnel
passageway, but linked that to the new corridor to the south of the
running tunnels, rather than the 1906 lift landing to the north.

Yes, that's what happened, but *why*.

Cheaper and easier? Less disruption to the Piccadilly line? And not a
downside for pax near the eastern end of trains. Those at the western end
can use the escalator route.


Incidentally I'm still coming up empty trying to find a picture of the
original (pre 1933) Dover Street station exterior. Presumably above the
"Dover Street Shaft".

Yes, me too. I guess it must have been redeveloped a long time ago.

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 17:19:14 on Fri, 4 Mar 2016, Recliner
remarked:

I think they re-used the platform exists, stairs, and over-tunnel
passageway, but linked that to the new corridor to the south of the
running tunnels, rather than the 1906 lift landing to the north.

Yes, that's what happened, but *why*.

Cheaper and easier? Less disruption to the Piccadilly line? And not a
downside for pax near the eastern end of trains. Those at the western end
can use the escalator route.

A bit of an unhappy compromise, with hindsight.

Does the signage at the western end of the Piccadilly platforms point to
the escalators, or back to the passage, for connections with the other
two lines?

Incidentally I'm still coming up empty trying to find a picture of the
original (pre 1933) Dover Street station exterior. Presumably above the
"Dover Street Shaft".

Yes, me too. I guess it must have been redeveloped a long time ago.

Yes, but what I meant was a pre-1933 photo of the pre-1933 station. That
would at least perhaps confirm where on Dover St it was (I've also yet
to find an old map indicating that).
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:16:31 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 17:19:14 on Fri, 4 Mar 2016, Recliner
remarked:

I think they re-used the platform exists, stairs, and over-tunnel
passageway, but linked that to the new corridor to the south of the
running tunnels, rather than the 1906 lift landing to the north.

Yes, that's what happened, but *why*.

Cheaper and easier? Less disruption to the Piccadilly line? And not a
downside for pax near the eastern end of trains. Those at the western end
can use the escalator route.

A bit of an unhappy compromise, with hindsight.

Does the signage at the western end of the Piccadilly platforms point to
the escalators, or back to the passage, for connections with the other
two lines?

I went through Green Park today and took this picture that shows that,
right from the western end of the Piccadilly platforms, the
interchange signs points to the corridor connection, not the
escalator:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/reclin...blic/lightbox/

However, for the first time in ages, I took the corridor walk, and it
was shorter than I remembered: only a 2-3 minutes, walking at a normal
pace. The exit for the Victoria line actually isn't far at all from
the western end of the platforms (it's the Jubilee line that's further
along). Once you've studied the station layout, you can see that
you're then just walking parallel to the western end Piccadilly
platform, but a flight of stairs higher (as the route from the
eastbound platform has to cross over the westbound platform tunnel)
till you're under the ticket hall (where there's the lift), then more
stairs up to the Victoria line. So, yes, you do have two sets of
steps, first up to the corridor, and then up to the Victoria line
(which runs over the Piccadilly line), but the actual walk is very
short.