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#31
February 20th 17, 11:21 AM
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GOSPEL Electrification
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#32
February 20th 17, 11:34 AM
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GOSPEL Electrification
On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 11:37:08 +0000
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:08:35 on Mon, 20 Feb 2017, d remarked: Both yesterday and today, and possibly earlier, two-car DMUs have been travelling along the line, presumably for driver training/route familiarisation purposes. Presumably the line's own 172s? They've been parked at Willesden during the closure. I'm surprised TfL hasn't sold them I think the lessor (Angel Trains) would have something to say if TfL sold them!! I didn't realised they were leased. Is that a choice TfL made or was it forced upon them I wonder? -- Spud |
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#34
February 20th 17, 11:42 AM
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GOSPEL Electrification
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#35
February 20th 17, 11:51 AM
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GOSPEL Electrification
On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:42:03 +0000
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 12:34:52 on Mon, 20 Feb 2017, d remarked: Both yesterday and today, and possibly earlier, two-car DMUs have been travelling along the line, presumably for driver training/route familiarisation purposes. Presumably the line's own 172s? They've been parked at Willesden during the closure. I'm surprised TfL hasn't sold them I think the lessor (Angel Trains) would have something to say if TfL sold them!! I didn't realised they were leased. Is that a choice TfL made or was it forced upon them I wonder? Almost all rolling stock is leased. And it's TfL imposing it on Arriva Rail London (just as DfT does on its management contracts such as with GTR). AFAIK tube trains are all owned outright by LU. Is this not the case with the 378s on LO then? -- Spud |
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#36
February 20th 17, 11:53 AM
posted to uk.transport.london
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GOSPEL Electrification
On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:35:57 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:
On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:21:54 +0000 Recliner wrote: On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 11:08:35 +0000 (UTC), d wrote: On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 21:45:36 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: Robin9 wrote: Both yesterday and today, and possibly earlier, two-car DMUs have been travelling along the line, presumably for driver training/route familiarisation purposes. Presumably the line's own 172s? They've been parked at Willesden during the closure. I'm surprised TfL hasn't sold them given they'll be redundant on the LO network when electrification is complete. They will be needed when the line reopens this month, partly because the electrification won't be complete, and even after it is, because the new trains don't arrive till next year. There had been local pressure for some other redundant old 4-car EMUs to be used until the new trains arrive, but TfL hasn't shown much enthusiasm. Of course if TfL had ordered a few extra 378s back in 2014.... but we've done that argument. On what basis could TfL have ordered any kind of EMUs in Feb 2013 (when the last 378 carriage order was authorised) for a line whose electrification contract was only awarded in September 2015? You seem to have a remarkably cavalier approach to public spending! You'd be the first to complain if fleets of new trains were ordered prematurely, and then not used because plans had changed. |
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#37
February 20th 17, 11:57 AM
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GOSPEL Electrification
On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:51:49 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:
On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:42:03 +0000 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 12:34:52 on Mon, 20 Feb 2017, d remarked: Both yesterday and today, and possibly earlier, two-car DMUs have been travelling along the line, presumably for driver training/route familiarisation purposes. Presumably the line's own 172s? They've been parked at Willesden during the closure. I'm surprised TfL hasn't sold them I think the lessor (Angel Trains) would have something to say if TfL sold them!! I didn't realised they were leased. Is that a choice TfL made or was it forced upon them I wonder? Almost all rolling stock is leased. And it's TfL imposing it on Arriva Rail London (just as DfT does on its management contracts such as with GTR). AFAIK tube trains are all owned outright by LU. Is this not the case with the 378s on LO then? No |
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#38
February 20th 17, 12:15 PM
posted to uk.transport.london
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GOSPEL Electrification
On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:53:51 +0000
Recliner wrote: On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:35:57 +0000 (UTC), d wrote: Of course if TfL had ordered a few extra 378s back in 2014.... but we've done that argument. On what basis could TfL have ordered any kind of EMUs in Feb 2013 (when the last 378 carriage order was authorised) for a line whose electrification contract was only awarded in September 2015? On the basis that it was likely to happen and a few extra trains couldn't hurt anyway. According to wonkypedia 57 of the 378s were built so another 6 or so (I'm guessing it'll be around that required for the goblin) would hardly have broken the bank considering the overall cost of the whole LO project. Plus there's this interesting snippet: "In July 2015, London Overground announced an order for 45 new Class 710 units, some of which would displace the Class 378s in use on the Watford DC Line. These displaced units will then be cascaded to strengthen services on the other lines the units are used on." So in other words they didn't order enough 378s in the first place. -- Spud |
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#39
February 20th 17, 12:55 PM
posted to uk.transport.london
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GOSPEL Electrification
On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 13:15:32 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:
On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:53:51 +0000 Recliner wrote: On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:35:57 +0000 (UTC), d wrote: Of course if TfL had ordered a few extra 378s back in 2014.... but we've done that argument. On what basis could TfL have ordered any kind of EMUs in Feb 2013 (when the last 378 carriage order was authorised) for a line whose electrification contract was only awarded in September 2015? On the basis that it was likely to happen and a few extra trains couldn't hurt anyway. According to wonkypedia 57 of the 378s were built so another 6 or so (I'm guessing it'll be around that required for the goblin) would hardly have broken the bank considering the overall cost of the whole LO project. Do you think TfL has lots of spare cash sloshing around that it can squander on trains that may never be needed? Do you really know nothing about public sector procurement? Plus there's this interesting snippet: "In July 2015, London Overground announced an order for 45 new Class 710 units, some of which would displace the Class 378s in use on the Watford DC Line. These displaced units will then be cascaded to strengthen services on the other lines the units are used on." So in other words they didn't order enough 378s in the first place. They knew that by 2015. They didn't when the last 378s were ordered, more than two years earlier, or they'd have ordered more. In any case, they'd have still needed to order more trains for the GOBLIN and the new eastern LO lines, and 378 has now been superseded. Better that they get more of the modern train, rather than the old one that costs more to operate. But then, you seem to be keen that TfL wastes as much money as possible, buying more trains that you've previously said you hated. |
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#40
February 20th 17, 01:39 PM
posted to uk.transport.london
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GOSPEL Electrification
On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 13:55:11 +0000
Recliner wrote: On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 13:15:32 +0000 (UTC), d wrote: On the basis that it was likely to happen and a few extra trains couldn't hurt anyway. According to wonkypedia 57 of the 378s were built so another 6 or so (I'm guessing it'll be around that required for the goblin) would hardly have broken the bank considering the overall cost of the whole LO project. Do you think TfL has lots of spare cash sloshing around that it can squander on trains that may never be needed? Do you really know nothing about public sector procurement? Clearly they are needed for service improvements elsewhere anyway. Don't tell me they didn't know that before 2015. So in other words they didn't order enough 378s in the first place. They knew that by 2015. They didn't when the last 378s were ordered, more than two years earlier, or they'd have ordered more. In any case, they'd have still needed to order more trains for the GOBLIN and the new eastern LO lines, and 378 has now been superseded. Better that they get more of the modern train, rather than the old one that costs more to operate. But then, you seem to be keen that TfL wastes as much money as possible, buying more trains that you've previously said you hated. So how much cheaper will the 710s be then once you've factored in the extra costs of a new design, driver training, signalling and depot upgrades? Got any independent stats rather than just self serving blurb from Bombardier? Also you seem to have completely missed the point that using seperate EMU types on the goblin keeps the line self contained. If they'd used dual voltage 378s there could have been through services. Thats been shot out the water now unless they're planning on testing and type approving the 710 for the whole NLL. -- Spud |
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