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Old July 24th 17, 02:55 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Chris Grayling gives backing to Crossrail 2

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/transport-secretary-chris-grayling-gives-backing-to-crossrail-2-a3594416.html

The £30 billion Crossrail 2 project took a major step forwards today as
Chris Grayling confirmed that he supported the scheme.

The Transport Secretary said there was no doubt London needed new
infrastructure in order to retain its status as the UK’s economic
powerhouse.

His remarks will calm nerves among London politicians and businesses that
the Government had gone cool on the capital’s flagship infrastructure
project.

There had been fears the scheme could be derailed by competing pressures
from the North after it was left out of the Tory manifesto and Queen’s
Speech.

Yet despite the Transport Secretary’s backing for the major north-south
rail link there remain concerns about how it will be funded.

Mr Grayling said: “I am a supporter of Crossrail 2 but given its price tag
we have to ensure that we get this right”.

He issued a joint statement with Mayor Sadiq Khan announcing plans to work
together on a financial package ahead of this autumn’s Budget.

Transport for London was already expecting to pay for at least half of the
cost of the project - but much of it in arrears, as with Crossrail 1.

However, the Department for Transport has now said it wants half of the
construction costs paid for up-front.

Mr Grayling added: “The Mayor and I have agreed to work together on it over
the coming months to develop plans that are as strong as possible, so that
the public gets an affordable scheme that is fair to the UK taxpayer.”

This would be followed by a fresh public consultation on issues including
the route.

Crossrail 2 is embroiled in a series of disputes over the location of
stations, with major local opposition to proposed stops at Chelsea and
Wimbledon.

Mr Khan added: “Crossrail 2 is essential for the future prosperity of
London and the South East, so I’m pleased that the Transport Secretary and
I have reached an agreement to take this vital project forward.

“We will continue to work together to ensure the project is value for money
and provides the maximum benefits for jobs and growth in the region over
coming decades.”

Crossrail 2 is seen as critical to London’s future rapid growth and will
unlock an estimated 200,000 new homes and 200,000 jobs.

Business groups welcomed the announcement. David Leam, infrastructure
director of London First, said: “With this joint statement, Crossrail 2 has
moved forward - from whether we do it to how we do it.

“The Government’s funding ambition is a challenging one but London business
will play its part in developing an affordable funding package, as we did
with Crossrail 1.”

The announcement follows a meeting between the two politicians last week
that was described as “constructive”, marking a thaw in relations after
disagreements over the devolution of suburban rail.

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Old July 25th 17, 03:42 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Chris Grayling gives backing to Crossrail 2

On Monday, 24 July 2017 15:59:57 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/transport-secretary-chris-grayling-gives-backing-to-crossrail-2-a3594416.html

The £30 billion Crossrail 2 project took a major step forwards today as
Chris Grayling confirmed that he supported the scheme.


Why has everyone fallen for this guff from Grayling? He said a few vaguely supportive words but has not given any go ahead nor committed any money.

Think about where we were recently - TfL delivered the Strategic Business Case to the DfT for approval. Nothing happened. We had an election. Nothing happened. The Mayor, business leaders, London Assembly all start shouting "why haven't you given the go ahead to CR2?". Nothing happens until we get this meaningless statement which

a) does not mention the business case approval at all
b) does not guarantee any funding at all
c) makes the next round of consultation conditional.
d) sends TfL and the Mayor away to do more work on a completely different funding package.
e) sends TfL and the Mayor away to "make the scheme affordable" as clearly it currently isn't affordable if your name is Grayling
f) sends TfL and the Mayor away to confirm the route (i.e. cut it back)
g) sends TfL and the Mayor away to remove uncertainty about the safeguarding (e.g. scrap Chelsea station, stop wittering about an eastern branch).

All yesterday's nonsense does is get the pressure off the DfT for a few months, avoids the DfT making any commitments at all, gives the Mayor and TfL a funding requirement that is the complete opposite of what they submitted (they wanted to borrow and hypothecate future revenue streams). There is no mention about a Land Value Capture Tax that was rumoured to be Grayling's preference for review but the lack of government majority no doubt means this can't be taken forward as legislation would be needed.

The demands from Grayling for "up front" funding from TfL is a way of trying to force the Mayor to scrap his fares freeze and implement higher than inflation fare increases to create an annual funding stream. Alternatively or even additionally it may also mean the TfL precept being increased vastly or TfL's activities being scaled back even more to generate funding for CR2.. This is payback for every time the Mayor has said "give me Southern to run", "let me run South Eastern", "government operation of trains is useless", "you have to freeze rail fares as I've done on the tube and DLR". Grayling hates all this so time to show who's boss.

I know I am being very negative here but Grayling hates everything Khan stands for. However he holds the power here as CR2 cannot proceed without government funding nor can changes to NR services to implement CR2 proceed without DfT sign off. I am sure there are a thousand other issues which also need DfT / govt support. This announcement is actually an exercise in power by Grayling as I am sure Khan understands all too well. However he has no choice but to do what Grayling wants otherwise he has to give up on CR2 and then he'd be in the firing line - a result Grayling would no doubt be delighted with.

--
Paul C
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Old July 25th 17, 08:52 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Chris Grayling gives backing to Crossrail 2



"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

I know I am being very negative here but Grayling hates everything Khan
stands for. However he holds the power here as CR2 cannot proceed without
government funding nor can changes to NR services to implement CR2 proceed
without DfT sign off. I am sure there are a thousand other issues which
also need DfT / govt support. This announcement is actually an exercise
in power by Grayling as I am sure Khan understands all too well. However
he has no choice but to do what Grayling wants otherwise he has to give up
on CR2 and then he'd be in the firing line - a result Grayling would no
doubt be delighted with.


whatever the results of this, I doubt very much that Kahn will still be in
office by the time that CR2 construction is started

tim



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Old July 25th 17, 09:42 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Chris Grayling gives backing to Crossrail 2

tim... wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

I know I am being very negative here but Grayling hates everything Khan
stands for. However he holds the power here as CR2 cannot proceed without
government funding nor can changes to NR services to implement CR2 proceed
without DfT sign off. I am sure there are a thousand other issues which
also need DfT / govt support. This announcement is actually an exercise
in power by Grayling as I am sure Khan understands all too well. However
he has no choice but to do what Grayling wants otherwise he has to give up
on CR2 and then he'd be in the firing line - a result Grayling would no
doubt be delighted with.


whatever the results of this, I doubt very much that Kahn will still be in
office by the time that CR2 construction is started


Who is 'Kahn'?

Whoever he is, Sadiq Khan probably hopes to be PM by the time CR2
construction
might start in the mid 2020s. And Grayling's term at the DfT will be long
forgotten.

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Old July 25th 17, 11:29 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Chris Grayling gives backing to Crossrail 2

Recliner wrote:

Who is 'Kahn'?


He's the guy who's ****ed off at Jim Kirk.


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Old July 26th 17, 12:37 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 4,750
Default Chris Grayling gives backing to Crossrail 2

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Monday, 24 July 2017 15:59:57 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/trans...hris-grayling-
gives-backing-to-crossrail-2-a3594416.html

The 30 billion Crossrail 2 project took a major step forwards today as
Chris Grayling confirmed that he supported the scheme.


Why has everyone fallen for this guff from Grayling? He said a few
vaguely supportive words but has not given any go ahead nor committed
any money.

Think about where we were recently - TfL delivered the Strategic
Business Case to the DfT for approval. Nothing happened. We had an
election. Nothing happened. The Mayor, business leaders, London
Assembly all start shouting "why haven't you given the go ahead to
CR2?". Nothing happens until we get this meaningless statement which

a) does not mention the business case approval at all
b) does not guarantee any funding at all
c) makes the next round of consultation conditional.
d) sends TfL and the Mayor away to do more work on a completely
different funding package.
e) sends TfL and the Mayor away to "make the scheme affordable" as
clearly it currently isn't affordable if your name is Grayling
f) sends TfL and the Mayor away to confirm the route (i.e. cut it
back)
g) sends TfL and the Mayor away to remove uncertainty about the
safeguarding (e.g. scrap Chelsea station, stop wittering about an
eastern branch).

All yesterday's nonsense does is get the pressure off the DfT for a
few months, avoids the DfT making any commitments at all, gives the
Mayor and TfL a funding requirement that is the complete opposite of
what they submitted (they wanted to borrow and hypothecate future
revenue streams). There is no mention about a Land Value Capture Tax
that was rumoured to be Grayling's preference for review but the lack
of government majority no doubt means this can't be taken forward as
legislation would be needed.

The demands from Grayling for "up front" funding from TfL is a way of
trying to force the Mayor to scrap his fares freeze and implement
higher than inflation fare increases to create an annual funding
stream. Alternatively or even additionally it may also mean the TfL
precept being increased vastly or TfL's activities being scaled back
even more to generate funding for CR2. This is payback for every time
the Mayor has said "give me Southern to run", "let me run South
Eastern", "government operation of trains is useless", "you have to
freeze rail fares as I've done on the tube and DLR". Grayling hates
all this so time to show who's boss.

I know I am being very negative here but Grayling hates everything
Khan stands for. However he holds the power here as CR2 cannot
proceed without government funding nor can changes to NR services to
implement CR2 proceed without DfT sign off. I am sure there are a
thousand other issues which also need DfT / govt support. This
announcement is actually an exercise in power by Grayling as I am
sure Khan understands all too well. However he has no choice but to
do what Grayling wants otherwise he has to give up on CR2 and then
he'd be in the firing line - a result Grayling would no doubt be
delighted with.


Wow! Don't hold back, Paul! Not that I can fault what you say.

--
Colin Rosenstiel
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Old July 26th 17, 05:55 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Chris Grayling gives backing to Crossrail 2

On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 08:42:06 -0700 (PDT), Paul Corfield wrote:

On Monday, 24 July 2017 15:59:57 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/transport-secretary-chris-grayling-gives-backing-to-crossrail-2-a3594416.html

The 30 billion Crossrail 2 project took a major step forwards today as
Chris Grayling confirmed that he supported the scheme.


Why has everyone fallen for this guff from Grayling? He said a few vaguely supportive words but has not given any go ahead nor committed any money.

Think about where we were recently - TfL delivered the Strategic Business Case to the DfT for approval. Nothing happened. We had an election. Nothing happened. The Mayor, business leaders, London Assembly all start shouting "why haven't you given the go ahead to CR2?". Nothing happens until we get this meaningless statement which

a) does not mention the business case approval at all
b) does not guarantee any funding at all
c) makes the next round of consultation conditional.
d) sends TfL and the Mayor away to do more work on a completely different funding package.
e) sends TfL and the Mayor away to "make the scheme affordable" as clearly it currently isn't affordable if your name is Grayling
f) sends TfL and the Mayor away to confirm the route (i.e. cut it back)
g) sends TfL and the Mayor away to remove uncertainty about the safeguarding (e.g. scrap Chelsea station, stop wittering about an eastern branch).

All yesterday's nonsense does is get the pressure off the DfT for a few months, avoids the DfT making any commitments at all, gives the Mayor and TfL a funding requirement that is the complete opposite of what they submitted (they wanted to borrow and hypothecate future revenue streams). There is no mention about a Land Value Capture Tax that was rumoured to be Grayling's preference for review but the lack of government majority no doubt means this can't be taken forward as legislation would be needed.

The demands from Grayling for "up front" funding from TfL is a way of trying to force the Mayor to scrap his fares freeze and implement higher than inflation fare increases to create an annual funding stream. Alternatively or even additionally it may also mean the TfL precept being increased vastly or TfL's activities being scaled back even more to generate funding for CR2. This is payback for every time the Mayor has said "give me Southern to run", "let me run South Eastern", "government operation of trains is useless", "you have to freeze rail fares as I've done on the tube and DLR". Grayling hates all this so time to show who's boss.

I know I am being very negative here but Grayling hates everything Khan stands for. However he holds the power here as CR2 cannot proceed without government funding nor can changes to NR services to implement CR2 proceed without DfT sign off. I am sure there are a thousand other issues which also need DfT / govt support. This announcement is actually an exercise in power by Grayling as I am sure Khan understands all too well. However he has no choice but to do what Grayling wants otherwise he has to give up on CR2 and then he'd be in the firing line - a result Grayling would no doubt be delighted with.


Is it true that Grayling will insist on diesel operation to avoid having to pay for electrification?
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Old July 26th 17, 08:28 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Chris Grayling gives backing to Crossrail 2



"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

I know I am being very negative here but Grayling hates everything Khan
stands for. However he holds the power here as CR2 cannot proceed
without
government funding nor can changes to NR services to implement CR2
proceed
without DfT sign off. I am sure there are a thousand other issues which
also need DfT / govt support. This announcement is actually an exercise
in power by Grayling as I am sure Khan understands all too well.
However
he has no choice but to do what Grayling wants otherwise he has to give
up
on CR2 and then he'd be in the firing line - a result Grayling would no
doubt be delighted with.


whatever the results of this, I doubt very much that Kahn will still be
in
office by the time that CR2 construction is started


Who is 'Kahn'?

Whoever he is, Sadiq Khan probably hopes to be PM


I suspect that he won't make it that far

but he will have to be back on the commons in order to give it a shot

tim


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Old July 26th 17, 08:31 AM
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Default

I don't know if Mr. Grayling does hate everything that Mr. Khan
stands for, and he being a professional politician, I accept that
his motives may not be entirely pure, public minded and honourable.

However, it is not contrary to the public interest to force the
Mayor to do his sums correctly, to make sure that Londoners
one way or another pay for a London Tube line instead of
scrounging off tax-payers elsewhere, and to insist that the scheme
is finalised and quantified before work begins.

We have had too many railway projects for which the costs and
specifications have been changed after work has begun. Very few
sensible people believe that Mr. Khan's policy of holding down fares
is a rational way of financing public transport in London.
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Old July 26th 17, 09:19 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 2,239
Default Chris Grayling gives backing to Crossrail 2

tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

I know I am being very negative here but Grayling hates everything Khan
stands for. However he holds the power here as CR2 cannot proceed
without
government funding nor can changes to NR services to implement CR2
proceed
without DfT sign off. I am sure there are a thousand other issues which
also need DfT / govt support. This announcement is actually an exercise
in power by Grayling as I am sure Khan understands all too well.
However
he has no choice but to do what Grayling wants otherwise he has to give
up
on CR2 and then he'd be in the firing line - a result Grayling would no
doubt be delighted with.

whatever the results of this, I doubt very much that Kahn will still be
in
office by the time that CR2 construction is started


Who is 'Kahn'?

Whoever he is, Sadiq Khan probably hopes to be PM


I suspect that he won't make it that far


Well, I bow to your greater knowledge on the subject. But you might want to
read this long profile on him in the New Yorker:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/07/31/sadiq-khan-takes-on-brexit-and-terror/amp


but he will have to be back on the commons in order to give it a shot


Yes, of course. I'm sure you know that both his predecessors combined their
roles as MP and mayor for periods. Boris was also a best-selling author and
very highly paid newspaper columnist while mayor.



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