On 29.08.2017 11:52 PM, wrote:
In article , (Clank)
wrote:

On 29.08.2017 4:14 PM, wrote:
In article ,
(Clank) wrote:

On 29.08.2017 2:50 AM, wrote:
I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost
all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school.

It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the
least useful language to learn. Not so much because of the level of
use, but rather because the native speakers would rather sniff
haughtily than descend to the level of communicating with anyone less
than perfectly fluent in it...

It's taught in school because France is our largest near neighbour and
the single foreign country with which this country has interacted down
the centuries. Young people like you

That's the nicest thing anyone said in a while.

:-)

all. French was also the universally accepted international language and
language of diplomacy until the Internet enabled (American) English to
sweep all before it.

This may be true, but it's most certainly not the international language
of business*, and given the paucity of competent diplomats in the UK
(currently being highlighted by the Brexit negotiations,) it is more than
apparent that commerce is a more common career ambition than diplomacy.
I'm not sure that usefulness in the court of Charlemagne is a valid basis
for determining a 21st century school curriculum.

It's a more recent basis than many other decisions on the school curriculum.

* Hell,I worked in France a little over 20 years ago (young man that I
am), for a Dutch multinational, with a working language of - you guessed
it - English.

If you mean Philips (for which I worked one way or another for most of 25
years) even they accepted that "Concern English" wasn't proper English.

French as the default language in UK schools really is daft - Spanish
would make more sense, or German.

A very holiday-oriented or American attitude if I may say so.

Nonsense. I spend my holidays in places like central Russia, I've been on
holiday to Spain exactly once in my life (although since I was visiting a
business partner in his villa, maybe that counts as half a holiday.) But,
I do have clients in Spanish speaking nations, and the total numbers
certainly work in favour of Spanish over French. 100 million speakers
(your number, a quick Google suggests actual native speakers is
75million but let's take 100) isn't very many at all, after all. I'm
visiting a *small* Chinese city next week - with a population of roughly
1/10th of that, more or less none of whom speak French (barely any speak
English, for that matter.)

1. Anecdotes are not data. I doubt you (or I) are typical.

When it's my attitude you're talking about, anecdotes *are* data. I was
pointing out that you should not be so presumptuous (or in other words -
no, you may not say so.)

2. I was guessing the total world Francophone population which includes a
lot of Africa as well as France and its possessions. "France Diplomatie"
says 220 million "including 72 million so-called partial French speakers".
That may be top whack but my 100 million looks very conservative. See "The
status of French in the world - France Diplomatie". Other sources are
available with figures up to 300 million.

Indeed, I read that site - to say it clutches at straws rather is an
understatement. "France is an official language of the International
Olympic Committee!" I'm surprised they didn't mention Eurovision (maybe
they did and I forgot.)

One is tempted to presume that anyone who ever uttered a phrase like
"noblesse oblige" immediately gets counted in their "partial French
speakers" category.



You're probably right that a more radical rethink might be required, and
Mandarin+simplified Chinese probably ought to be the second language
taught if we're being entirely practical (certainly would be far more
useful to me than French.) But that might be a step too far, and I think
Spanish or German provide a significantly better level of utility for both
business and leisure than French.

When I was at school we used to says "optimists learn Russian, pessimists
Chinese".

I attempted to learn Russian when I was at uni, so guess that makes me an
optimist. I say attempted - I can at least read Cyrillic (and that gets
you a surprisingly long way, there's plenty of common vocabulary between
English and Romanian, enough that I find getting around in Russia and
Ukraine no problem) and speak a little.

My father regarded German as a dead language (he was a native speaker).
Times have changed though.

I have a good friend who speaks excellent German. We always reckoned that
between our English, his German and my Russian we could probably make
ourselves understood almost anywhere in Europe. At the expense of being
able to also offend people almost anywhere in Europe ;-).

On 29/08/2017 00:50, wrote:

I must say I do feel uncomfortable going to countries where I know nothing
of the language to the point of not knowing which are the words for Ladies &
Gents' loos and have only done it once, to Poland in 2002.

The local Polish loo symbols seem to have fallen out of fashion.

I got away with
English entirely except on one occasion, buying single train tickets from
Krakow to Warsaw. I thought of trying German but decided it would be
undiplomatic at least.

I find that Poles don't mind tourist German, once they have established
that you are not actually German and so it is being used by both sides
for purely practical reasons.

The people who smugly declare how uniquely evil the English are for not
speaking every known foreign language (often combined with a sneer at
those people who were so ignorant that they did A Level maths and
science at school, and therefore can be assumed to be barely capable of
walking upright, never mind knowing the gender of a fromage sandwich),
have never seen German tourists in action in a place where the natives
don't speak English.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:52:31 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

[French because...]
Probably because it's the language of the diplomatic community, and of
other educated professionals worldwide, and thus a throwback to when
most people staying on at school long enough to be studying any
languages at all, would have a plausible need for it.

There is something about that language that I love, although it could
be entirely conditioning and early access to it. Languages - any -
are IMO a good thing whether useful or not. Learning for personal
development and pleasure, if languages are your thing, of course.

Our physical proximity to France is a co-incidence.

I think people should know something of their neighbours' language(s),
to find out something about the culture. Having their TV channels
would be a start, something that Belgium and the Netherlands learned.
I suppose cable helped there.

I agree that today Spanish is likely to be more useful for a tourist.

But to make one's way in the world of business the language one really
does need to be proficient in, is English as a Foreign Language - being
able to speak with a simplified vocabulary that you adapt in real time
to your audience, and an ear for strong accents.

That's very true. The ability to adjust to the other person's accent
and apparent % comprehension without losing the plot or sounding
patronising is a real skill.

Richard.

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 08:22:24PM +0100, Richard wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:52:31 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:
Our physical proximity to France is a co-incidence.
I think people should know something of their neighbours' language(s),
to find out something about the culture. Having their TV channels
would be a start, something that Belgium and the Netherlands learned.
I suppose cable helped there.

No, really we shouldn't.

No-one should have to suffer Welsh language broadcasting.

--
David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice

We found no search results for "crotchet". Did you mean "crotch"?

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 09:27:43PM +0100, Arthur Figgis wrote:

The people who smugly declare how uniquely evil the English are for not
speaking every known foreign language (often combined with a sneer at
those people who were so ignorant that they did A Level maths and
science at school, and therefore can be assumed to be barely capable of
walking upright, never mind knowing the gender of a fromage sandwich),
...

I have a special kind of sneering for those people.

Oh, you only speak Indo-European languages? I'm so sorry.

--
David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice

You know you're getting old when you fancy the
teenager's parent and ignore the teenager
-- Paul M in uknot

On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 16:25:55 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 08:22:24PM +0100, Richard wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:52:31 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:
Our physical proximity to France is a co-incidence.
I think people should know something of their neighbours' language(s),
to find out something about the culture. Having their TV channels
would be a start, something that Belgium and the Netherlands learned.
I suppose cable helped there.

No, really we shouldn't.

No-one should have to suffer Welsh language broadcasting.

That's a bit narrow-minded.... no, absolutely pig-headed.

I would be imaginatively surprised should you prove that you do not
have access to/service from public broadcasting (let alone commercial)
outlets in Your Language.

So why would you be 'forced' to tune/view programming in Welsh?

Your choice is to ignore it.

But inclusion and interest in others wouldn't go amiss.

On Mon, Sep 04, 2017 at 06:06:13PM -0700, Nobody wrote:
On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 16:25:55 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 08:22:24PM +0100, Richard wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:52:31 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:
Our physical proximity to France is a co-incidence.
I think people should know something of their neighbours' language(s),
to find out something about the culture. Having their TV channels
would be a start, something that Belgium and the Netherlands learned.
I suppose cable helped there.

No, really we shouldn't.

No-one should have to suffer Welsh language broadcasting.

That's a bit narrow-minded.... no, absolutely pig-headed.

I would be imaginatively surprised should you prove that you do not
have access to/service from public broadcasting (let alone commercial)
outlets in Your Language.

So why would you be 'forced' to tune/view programming in Welsh?

Your choice is to ignore it.

I didn't have that choice when I was made to learn Welsh at school.

--
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

Arbeit macht Alkoholiker

On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 16:04:18 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:

On Mon, Sep 04, 2017 at 06:06:13PM -0700, Nobody wrote:
On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 16:25:55 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 08:22:24PM +0100, Richard wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:52:31 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:
Our physical proximity to France is a co-incidence.
I think people should know something of their neighbours' language(s),
to find out something about the culture. Having their TV channels
would be a start, something that Belgium and the Netherlands learned.
I suppose cable helped there.

No, really we shouldn't.

No-one should have to suffer Welsh language broadcasting.

That's a bit narrow-minded.... no, absolutely pig-headed.

I would be imaginatively surprised should you prove that you do not
have access to/service from public broadcasting (let alone commercial)
outlets in Your Language.

So why would you be 'forced' to tune/view programming in Welsh?

Your choice is to ignore it.

I didn't have that choice when I was made to learn Welsh at school.

But your original comment was, "No-one should have to suffer Welsh
language BROADCASTING." No mention of schooling in that comment that
I can ascertain.

Lurning (deliberate) another language, or even being exposed to other
languages, 'should' enhance how you appreciate/understand your native
tongue.

It really is interesting, and most of all, fun... as in "meeting
people".

On 06/09/2017 01:35, Nobody wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 16:04:18 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:

I didn't have that choice when I was made to learn Welsh at school.

Lurning (deliberate) another language, or even being exposed to other
languages, 'should' enhance how you appreciate/understand your native
tongue.

It really is interesting, and most of all, fun... as in "meeting
people".


And I refer you to my previously made point that there are barely any
Welsh people who are not competently conversant in English and hence the
opportunity for meeting one is limited to say the least.

Learning other languages does have benefits, I don't deny that, but at
least make it something useful like Spanish (try travelling in South
America without any), Chinese, French (across the channel, some of CALA,
some of Africa) etc.

On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 11:09:11 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:

On Tue, Sep 05, 2017 at 05:35:37PM -0700, Nobody wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 16:04:18 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:
I didn't have that choice when I was made to learn Welsh at school.
But your original comment was, "No-one should have to suffer Welsh
language BROADCASTING." No mention of schooling in that comment that
I can ascertain.

Perhaps you've never learned a second language, but my experience of
learning five of 'em has been that lessons generally include exposure to
media in that language. Including broadcasts (usually but not always
recorded).

Again, I point out your bald statement, "No-one should have to suffer
Welsh language broadcasting."

How you were exposed to the sounds of the how-many languages you have
been taught is irrelevant.

You posted an assessment of a legitimate service wherein the alternate
tuning of your radio or TV receivers would provide you with language
access of your choice.

I was 'taught' two languages other than my native English... learned
might be pushing the definition.. but I also was involved for several
decades with multi-lingual broadcasting aimed at minority language
groups.