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Old August 30th 17, 09:10 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Oyster and Contactless on NR

On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 15:11:29 -0500, wrote:
In article ,

(David Walters) wrote:

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 20:27:25 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen
wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 16:42:42 +0100, David Walters
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500,

wrote:
I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail
route in London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and
discounts given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards
was somewhat haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check
railcard registration status at a ticket machine. It was only when
they decided to close all the ticket offices that they had to make it
possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors
contactless became a much better option when introduced unless you are
a railcard holder because, although Oyster cards have to be registered
to get railcard discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts
against Contactless travel.

Perhaps because there is no way for an on-board ticket inspection to
confirm the person using the contactless card is the owner, and in
possession, of the relevant railcard? In theory a ticket check of an
Oyster card can flag the railcard which the ticket inspector would then
ask to see.

I don't see the problem. The railcard must still be brought along for
the journey.


How would the ticket inspector know to ask to see a railcard if a
contactless card was used?


From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking
contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a
degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago.


Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks
show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to
be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear.

There are also lots of places without data where tickets are checked
such as tunnels so you can't ask the back office.
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Old August 30th 17, 11:03 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 30/08/2017 11:52, d wrote:
On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 10:10:52 +0100
David Walters wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 15:11:29 -0500,

wrote:
From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking
contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a
degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago.


Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks
show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to
be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear.


I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg
ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then foundi
again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card is from a
valid bank and account type.

Given the frequency that people get cards cancelled these days due to
unauthorised payments etc I assume they must have a refuse list that
gets regularly distributed and updated to the gates - if not it's a
massive revenue hole.

I can imagine though that each card would work once, but for e.g. tube
journeys by the time you touch out again it may well have been flagged
and fail.

Given the price of memory these days, you could easily store a card for
each person in the UK in 0.5GB and CPU processing etc is such that it
could be rapidly searched if organised correctly. Ok - transmitting it
entirely would be tiresome, but presumably you'd only distributed e.g.
minutely updates each of which would only be a handful of cards.
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Old August 30th 17, 01:38 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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wrote:
On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 12:18:59 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:52:40 on Wed, 30 Aug
2017, d remarked:

From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking
contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a
degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago.

Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks
show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to
be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear.

I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg
ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then

foundi
again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card is from a
valid bank and account type.


The first time it's used, probably nothing to stop it. Once the charge
"bounces", overnight, it'll probably be added to a local-to-TfL
block-list.


I suppose for TfL the most they can lose is the daily capped fare, but if
contactless starts to be accepted on national rail for longer journeys someone
could in theory fleece a TOC of a few hundred quid.


I wonder if there isn't a list, updated at least daily, of all withdrawn
credit card numbers (that were still in their period of validity)? That
would be small enough to be downloaded to portable devices for offline use.

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Old August 30th 17, 03:00 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 30/08/2017 14:31, d wrote:
if
contactless starts to be accepted on national rail for longer journeys someone
could in theory fleece a TOC of a few hundred quid.

Isnt't the max for contactless £40, hence that has to be the limit of
liability.
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Old August 30th 17, 03:06 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 16:00:29 on Wed, 30 Aug
2017, Someone Somewhere remarked:
if
contactless starts to be accepted on national rail for longer journeys someone
could in theory fleece a TOC of a few hundred quid.

Isnt't the max for contactless £40, hence that has to be the limit of
liability.


The trader can voluntarily, at their risk, accept them for a greater
sum.

Not very likely though in a National Rail context.

And that's before we've looked at the complexity of national roll-out of
the equivalent of pink route validators, and checking if the traveller
sat in First or Standard,
--
Roland Perry
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Old August 30th 17, 03:14 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 16:00:29 +0100
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 30/08/2017 14:31, d wrote:
if
contactless starts to be accepted on national rail for longer journeys

someone
could in theory fleece a TOC of a few hundred quid.

Isnt't the max for contactless £40, hence that has to be the limit of
liability.


It seems to go up all the time.

--
Spud

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Old August 30th 17, 03:31 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 15:14:27 on Wed, 30 Aug
2017, d remarked:

Isnt't the max for contactless £40, hence that has to be the limit of
liability.


It seems to go up all the time.


I'm not aware it's increased above £30, a limit set in Sept 2015.
--
Roland Perry


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