Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On 09.09.17 19:03, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:07:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 08/09/2017 14:03, Recliner wrote:

An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18
routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest
stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked
failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within
stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between
platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes.


I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two
by tube.

The Gizmodo article (which is far more detailed than the newspaper
reports) includes a diagram.

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/09/lon...ficial-report/

And it's not actually 18 different ways. It's 17 different ways that,
individually, have at least 0.1% of the journey traffic, plus
"others".

Mark

Does not Oyster and Contactless help to determine passenger routes and
flows? Isn't that the reason why TfL introduced it?

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On 08/09/2017 14:36, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:03:37 on Fri, 8 Sep 2017, Recliner remarked:

The data showed that even within stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes.

Assisted, no doubt, by TfL signage which frequently points to non-optimum routes on account of fearing overloading of the optimum route.

I have often made journeys between Waterloo and King's Cross and though I mostly use their supposedly optimum route, have one time or another used at least half-a-dozen of the other routes. The reason is usually that one hears about problems on one or more lines or stations and so diverts to an alternative which is nearly as good. It may be that TfL have only analysed data when they think that services are good on their optimum route, but customers may have other information, possibly more or less accurate than that of TfL, which persuades them to divert.


--
Clive Page

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

In message , at 19:11:52 on Sat, 9 Sep 2017,
Graeme Wall remarked:

Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you
"targetted
adverts" as you approach various shops.
How effective is this? Maybe I am unusual, but when I am shopping my
phone is normally in my pocket, so I would not see these adverts. Apart
from incoming (phone) calls, the only time I would look at my phone in a
shopping mall is when sat in a coffee shop or restaurant.

I believe it has only happened in the States so far

They had a trial at Bluewater really quite a long time ago. I can't be
bothered to look it up, but around ten years perhaps?
--
Roland Perry

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

In article ,
(Guy Gorton) wrote:

On Fri, 08 Sep 2017 13:03:37 GMT, Recliner
wrote:

From:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...rack-commuters
-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49
507b8be3071

Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to
tackle overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising.

Fascinating selection of routes, some of which could be accounted for
by friends/relatives travelling together with different destinations
but on the same general route.

But why do people let the world know where they are? Not using the
device is not enough, It has to be switched off to avoid tracking.
Mine is only switched on when I am willing to accept calls or need to
make a call. That only amounts to a small proportion of my waking
hours so it is more often off than on..

Gosh! How quaint! Someone who thinks a phone is about phone calls these
days. Get with it grandpa!

Apart from anything else, this is about wifi coverage which is for data
which is little used for voice calls.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

In article , (Michael R N
Dolbear) wrote:

"Graham Murray" wrote in message news:8760cs9wja.fsf@einstein...

Basil Jet writes:

And there are two lines from Embankment to Waterloo.

At one time it would often have been quicker between Waterloo and
Embankment to walk over Hungerford Bridge. Though now that Hungerford
Bridge has been replaced by the Golden Jubilee Bridges, there is no
longer a direct walkway between them and Waterloo station.

The walkway, or rather its continuity, was broken long before the
Golden Jubilee Bridges were built.

Indeed. I was but a child and right miffed I was too.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 09/09/2017 13:16, Graham Murray wrote:
Graeme Wall writes:

Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you "targetted
adverts" as you approach various shops.

How effective is this? Maybe I am unusual, but when I am shopping my
phone is normally in my pocket, so I would not see these adverts. Apart
from incoming (phone) calls, the only time I would look at my phone in a
shopping mall is when sat in a coffee shop or restaurant.


I believe it has only happened in the States so far, but judging by the
number of young women one sees walking round with their smart phones
permanently in front of their faces, it has the potential to be quite
effective. Also I think the initial adverts are text messages so you
would hear an alert.


Texts would be more difficult that just tailoring already-requested
advertising to your specific location, surely? Though presumably very local
mobile (rather than wifi) transmitters would be able to harvest phone
numbers; by wifi that'd need some way of finding phone numbers from
whatever info wifi can harvest.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 09/09/2017 14:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 09/09/2017 10:37, Someone Somewhere wrote:


I'm not sure of the relevant legislation but presumably the only way to
avoid this is that each entity having such a system has to have a
different algorithm (or at least key) for anonymising the MAC data so
each data set remains siloised (but would the supplier of the system
still be able to join the different datasets?)


Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you "targetted
adverts" as you approach various shops.


'Send you' by what means?

SMS initially.


That'd be tricky to get from a MAC address, surely? Though as per my other
reply, other mechanisms may exist.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

wrote:
On 09.09.17 19:03, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:07:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 08/09/2017 14:03, Recliner wrote:

An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18
routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest
stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked
failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within
stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between
platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes.


I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two
by tube.

The Gizmodo article (which is far more detailed than the newspaper
reports) includes a diagram.

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/09/lon...ficial-report/

And it's not actually 18 different ways. It's 17 different ways that,
individually, have at least 0.1% of the journey traffic, plus
"others".

Mark

Does not Oyster and Contactless help to determine passenger routes and
flows? Isn't that the reason why TfL introduced it?


Only at point of entry and exit; not the route taken between them.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

In message , at 19:13:22 on Sat, 9 Sep 2017,
" remarked:

Does not Oyster and Contactless help to determine passenger routes and
flows? Isn't that the reason why TfL introduced it?

It gives the end points, but rarely the route between.
--
Roland Perry

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

In message , at 13:49:16
on Sat, 9 Sep 2017, remarked:

Apart from anything else, this is about wifi coverage which is for data
which is little used for voice calls.

Never used Whats App voice calls, grandad?
--
Roland Perry

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On 09/09/2017 18:58, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2017\09\09 10:48, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 09/09/2017 10:41, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:23:36 on Sat, 9 Sep
2017, Graeme Wall remarked:

I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between
the two by tube.

Â*Did you include Mornington Crescent? (Reverse at Camden Town.)

But, traditionally, invoking Mornington Crescent ends the journey.

Or in this case ends the game of trying to think of more odd routes.

Is this where I quote G K Chesterton?

Only if you want us to know what the hell you're talking about ;-)

Chesterton's poem, The Rolling English Road:

Before the Roman came to Rye or out to Severn strode,
The rolling English drunkard made the rolling English road.
A reeling road, a rolling road, that rambles round the shire,
And after him the parson ran, the sexton and the squire;
A merry road, a mazy road, and such as we did tread
*The night we went to Birmingham by way of Beachy Head.*

I knew no harm of Bonaparte and plenty of the Squire,
And for to fight the Frenchman I did not much desire;
But I did bash their baggonets because they came arrayed
To straighten out the crooked road an English drunkard made,
Where you and I went down the lane with ale-mugs in our hands,
The night we went to Glastonbury by way of Goodwin Sands.

His sins they were forgiven him; or why do flowers run
Behind him; and the hedges all strengthening in the sun?
The wild thing went from left to right and knew not which was which,
But the wild rose was above him when they found him in the ditch.
God pardon us, nor harden us; we did not see so clear
The night we went to Bannockburn by way of Brighton Pier.

My friends, we will not go again or ape an ancient rage,
Or stretch the folly of our youth to be the shame of age,
But walk with clearer eyes and ears this path that wandereth,
And see undrugged in evening light the decent inn of death;
For there is good news yet to hear and fine things to be seen,
Before we go to Paradise by way of Kensal Green

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On 09/09/2017 19:15, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:11:52 on Sat, 9 Sep 2017,
Graeme Wall remarked:

Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you "targetted
adverts" as you approach various shops.
Â*How effective is this? Maybe I am unusual, but when I am shopping my
phone is normally in my pocket, so I would not see these adverts. Apart
from incoming (phone) calls, the only time I would look at my phone in a
shopping mall is when sat in a coffee shop or restaurant.

I believe it has only happened in the States so far

They had a trial at Bluewater really quite a long time ago. I can't be
bothered to look it up, but around ten years perhaps?

As long as that? There was a piece about it in New Scientist a few
years back.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On 09/09/2017 19:13, wrote:
On 09.09.17 19:03, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:07:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 08/09/2017 14:03, Recliner wrote:

An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers
used 18
routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest
stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked
failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even
within
stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between
platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes.


I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two
by tube.

The Gizmodo article (which is far more detailed than the newspaper
reports) includes a diagram.

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/09/lon...ficial-report/


And it's not actually 18 different ways. It's 17 different ways that,
individually, have at least 0.1% of the journey traffic, plus
"others".

Mark

Does not Oyster and Contactless help to determine passenger routes and
flows? Isn't that the reason why TfL introduced it?

As the article points out, it doesn't track you through the system, just
the in and out points. The wifi data can follow you from platform to
platform.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

In article , () wrote:

Does not Oyster and Contactless help to determine passenger routes
and flows? Isn't that the reason why TfL introduced it?

Only up to a point. Oyster tells TfL about journeys from King's Cross to
Waterloo but not which of more than 17 possible routes people took.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On Sat, 9 Sep 2017 19:50:54 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 09/09/2017 14:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 09/09/2017 10:37, Someone Somewhere wrote:


I'm not sure of the relevant legislation but presumably the only way to
avoid this is that each entity having such a system has to have a
different algorithm (or at least key) for anonymising the MAC data so
each data set remains siloised (but would the supplier of the system
still be able to join the different datasets?)


Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you "targetted
adverts" as you approach various shops.


'Send you' by what means?

SMS initially.


That'd be tricky to get from a MAC address, surely? Though as per my other
reply, other mechanisms may exist.


Anna Noyd-Dryver


Gee, there are more 'Shirleys' in this thread than that non-alcoholic
drink ordered in a bar.

Must be some sort of Template.

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On Sat, 9 Sep 2017 22:07:40 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 09/09/2017 19:13, wrote:
On 09.09.17 19:03, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:07:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 08/09/2017 14:03, Recliner wrote:

An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers
used 18
routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest
stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked
failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even
within
stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between
platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes.


I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two
by tube.

The Gizmodo article (which is far more detailed than the newspaper
reports) includes a diagram.

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/09/lon...ficial-report/


And it's not actually 18 different ways. It's 17 different ways that,
individually, have at least 0.1% of the journey traffic, plus
"others".

Mark

Does not Oyster and Contactless help to determine passenger routes and
flows? Isn't that the reason why TfL introduced it?

As the article points out, it doesn't track you through the system, just
the in and out points. The wifi data can follow you from platform to
platform.

Where the WiFi is operative. It quite clearly isn't at e.g. some
Jubilee Line stations or sections thereof.

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On Sat, 09 Sep 2017 08:55:05 +0100, Guy Gorton
wrote:

On Fri, 08 Sep 2017 13:03:37 GMT, Recliner
wrote:

From:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071

Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to tackle
overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising.

Fascinating selection of routes, some of which could be accounted for
by friends/relatives travelling together with different destinations
but on the same general route.

But why do people let the world know where they are? Not using the
device is not enough, It has to be switched off to avoid tracking.
Mine is only switched on when I am willing to accept calls or need to
make a call. That only amounts to a small proportion of my waking
hours so it is more often off than on..

Guy Gorton

You're stepping into gradations of goat-herding

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On 09.09.17 20:50, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
On 09.09.17 19:03, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:07:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 08/09/2017 14:03, Recliner wrote:

An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18
routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest
stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked
failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within
stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between
platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes.


I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two
by tube.

The Gizmodo article (which is far more detailed than the newspaper
reports) includes a diagram.

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/09/lon...ficial-report/

And it's not actually 18 different ways. It's 17 different ways that,
individually, have at least 0.1% of the journey traffic, plus
"others".

Mark

Does not Oyster and Contactless help to determine passenger routes and
flows? Isn't that the reason why TfL introduced it?


Only at point of entry and exit; not the route taken between them.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Noted.

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On 10/09/2017 00:25, Nobody wrote:
On Sat, 9 Sep 2017 19:50:54 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 09/09/2017 14:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 09/09/2017 10:37, Someone Somewhere wrote:


I'm not sure of the relevant legislation but presumably the only way to
avoid this is that each entity having such a system has to have a
different algorithm (or at least key) for anonymising the MAC data so
each data set remains siloised (but would the supplier of the system
still be able to join the different datasets?)


Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you "targetted
adverts" as you approach various shops.


'Send you' by what means?

SMS initially.


That'd be tricky to get from a MAC address, surely? Though as per my other
reply, other mechanisms may exist.


Anna Noyd-Dryver


Gee, there are more 'Shirleys' in this thread than that non-alcoholic
drink ordered in a bar.

Must be some sort of Template.


Lollipop anyone?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On 09/09/2017 19:12, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 09/09/2017 14:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 09/09/2017 10:37, Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 08/09/2017 17:34, Sam Wilson wrote:
On 2017-09-08 14:40:46 +0000, Martin Coffee said:

On 08/09/17 15:00, Sam Wilson wrote:
On 2017-09-08 13:18:33 +0000, Martin Coffee said:

On 08/09/17 14:03, Recliner wrote:
[snip]
[TfL] said it was talking to the Information Commissioner’s Office
about its
plans and passengers could opt out by switching their wifi off. It
said
that the phone data was “de-personalised�, with nothing to
identify
individuals.

The system works by using 1,070 wifi access points on the Tube
network.
They pick up on a code that identifies each phone, the media
access control
(MAC) address, and track them from point to point.

Each MAC address was “irreversibly� encrypted, TfL said. Prior to
encryption, a random code is added to each to ensure that the
phone cannot
be identified even if the encryption could be reversed. No
browsing data
was collected, meaning that emails and the internet habits of
passengers
could not be shared with third parties.
[snip]
Let's face it.Â* Even if encrypted, you cannot anonymise a MAC
address as it is unique to each phone.

You can turn it into something that can't be (realistically) turned
back into a MAC address that can be used to identify the
phone/tablet/laptop/whatever.

You don't have to turn the "anonymised" back to a MAC address to
de-anonymise the data.Â* You just encrypt a MAC address and identify
the location data in just the same manner as the tracking occurs.
Thus the location can still be re-associated with the original MAC
address.

Sure, if you know a particular MAC address and the encryption
procedure and access to the location data then you may be able (and I
note Dr B's comments in his response) to recreate the key and
therefore track the MAC address.Â* Most of us (and I again I bow to Dr
B) probably can't do that.

Surely the most likely people to want to do this would be criminals
anyway, so criminalising their activities seems slightly pointless.
Deterring casual peepers is probably worth doing.

Surely the problem is if this becomes widespread as eventually you'll
get enough data to identify not just the phone but the individual.

It's fine if it's kept to the tube,Â* but let's take the advertising
angle,Â* presumably the advertisers won't be satisfied with just knowing
what the busiest platform is but would prefer to target their
adverts to
one or more groups of people on that platform.

By hooking up a similar system with retailers they work out that of the
group on the platform at 08:30 a significant proportion are e.g.
Waitrose shoppers.Â* And it then goes on and on until you end up pretty
much being able to identify the iindividual, what they buy, where they
live etc without actually ever using any personally identifiable
information.

I'm not sure of the relevant legislation but presumably the only way to
avoid this is that each entity having such a system has to have a
different algorithm (or at least key) for anonymising the MAC data so
each data set remains siloised (but would the supplier of the system
still be able to join the different datasets?)


Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you "targetted
adverts" as you approach various shops.


'Send you' by what means?

SMS initially.


It can be SMS, it could even be electronic billboards or display
screens. Imagine walking on to a tube platform, to be greeted by a
display with an advert from Boots - "Hey Someone Somewhere - you haven't
bought Preparation H recently. If your arse grapes are still troubling
you, you'll be pleased to know that we currently have 50p off our jumbo
tube" or similar....

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On Sat, 09 Sep 2017 16:49:54 -0700, Nobody wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2017 08:55:05 +0100, Guy Gorton
wrote:

On Fri, 08 Sep 2017 13:03:37 GMT, Recliner
wrote:

From:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071

Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to tackle
overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising.

Fascinating selection of routes, some of which could be accounted for
by friends/relatives travelling together with different destinations
but on the same general route.

But why do people let the world know where they are? Not using the
device is not enough, It has to be switched off to avoid tracking.
Mine is only switched on when I am willing to accept calls or need to
make a call. That only amounts to a small proportion of my waking
hours so it is more often off than on..

Guy Gorton

You're stepping into gradations of goat-herding

Goat-herding needs it switched on full time to avoid getting lost. I
like goats more than mobile phones because the cheese is tasty..

Guy Gorton

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On Sat, 9 Sep 2017 14:53:12 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

wrote:
On 09.09.17 11:42, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Guy Gorton wrote:


But why do people let the world know where they are? Not using the
device is not enough, It has to be switched off to avoid tracking.
Mine is only switched on when I am willing to accept calls or need to
make a call. That only amounts to a small proportion of my waking
hours so it is more often off than on..



My phone OTOH is always on except when it has to be off, eg whilst driving
a train.

Do drivers have to completely switch off their mobiles when at work? Or
can you simply put them on silent or airplane mode?


Off in the cab. Apparently we can't be trusted with airline mode etc ;) .

Well, you might still be playing Angry Birds :-)

Mark

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On Sat, 09 Sep 2017 08:55:05 +0100, Guy Gorton
wrote:

On Fri, 08 Sep 2017 13:03:37 GMT, Recliner
wrote:

From:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071

Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to tackle
overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising.

Fascinating selection of routes, some of which could be accounted for
by friends/relatives travelling together with different destinations
but on the same general route.

But why do people let the world know where they are? Not using the
device is not enough, It has to be switched off to avoid tracking.
Mine is only switched on when I am willing to accept calls or need to
make a call. That only amounts to a small proportion of my waking
hours so it is more often off than on..

Then you are in a small minority, and not part of the target market
for the applications in question.

Mark

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

Mark Goodge wrote:
On Sat, 9 Sep 2017 14:53:12 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

wrote:
On 09.09.17 11:42, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Guy Gorton wrote:


But why do people let the world know where they are? Not using the
device is not enough, It has to be switched off to avoid tracking.
Mine is only switched on when I am willing to accept calls or need to
make a call. That only amounts to a small proportion of my waking
hours so it is more often off than on..



My phone OTOH is always on except when it has to be off, eg whilst driving
a train.

Do drivers have to completely switch off their mobiles when at work? Or
can you simply put them on silent or airplane mode?


Off in the cab. Apparently we can't be trusted with airline mode etc ;) .

Well, you might still be playing Angry Birds :-)



In recent months I've played (and got bored with) a few railway-themed
games (though not while driving!) - I wonder how many railway-themed game
apps there are!


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On 10/09/2017 13:02, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Mark Goodge wrote:
On Sat, 9 Sep 2017 14:53:12 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

wrote:
On 09.09.17 11:42, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Guy Gorton wrote:


But why do people let the world know where they are? Not using the
device is not enough, It has to be switched off to avoid tracking.
Mine is only switched on when I am willing to accept calls or need to
make a call. That only amounts to a small proportion of my waking
hours so it is more often off than on..



My phone OTOH is always on except when it has to be off, eg whilst driving
a train.

Do drivers have to completely switch off their mobiles when at work? Or
can you simply put them on silent or airplane mode?


Off in the cab. Apparently we can't be trusted with airline mode etc ;) .

Well, you might still be playing Angry Birds :-)



In recent months I've played (and got bored with) a few railway-themed
games (though not while driving!) - I wonder how many railway-themed game
apps there are!


Anna Noyd-Dryver


Whilst not as an app, SIAM have railway simulations - mostly based on
DOS. Very good as well if you like that sort of thing.

--
Colin

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017 11:24:38 +0100, Mark Goodge
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2017 08:55:05 +0100, Guy Gorton
wrote:

On Fri, 08 Sep 2017 13:03:37 GMT, Recliner
wrote:

From:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071

Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to tackle
overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising.

Fascinating selection of routes, some of which could be accounted for
by friends/relatives travelling together with different destinations
but on the same general route.

But why do people let the world know where they are? Not using the
device is not enough, It has to be switched off to avoid tracking.
Mine is only switched on when I am willing to accept calls or need to
make a call. That only amounts to a small proportion of my waking
hours so it is more often off than on..

Then you are in a small minority, and not part of the target market
for the applications in question.

Mark

Very small, going by my observations almost anywhere. There are some
reasons for my reluctance to be tracked, for any purpose, but this is
not the place to discuss them.

Guy Gorton

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017 01:06:16 +0100, "
wrote:

On 09.09.17 20:50, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
On 09.09.17 19:03, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:07:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 08/09/2017 14:03, Recliner wrote:

An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18
routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest
stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked
failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within
stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between
platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes.


I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two
by tube.

The Gizmodo article (which is far more detailed than the newspaper
reports) includes a diagram.

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/09/lon...ficial-report/

And it's not actually 18 different ways. It's 17 different ways that,
individually, have at least 0.1% of the journey traffic, plus
"others".

Mark

Does not Oyster and Contactless help to determine passenger routes and
flows? Isn't that the reason why TfL introduced it?


Only at point of entry and exit; not the route taken between them.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Noted.

Determining the route typically requires the use of pink card readers
somewhere along the non-London route for users to touch so that a
reduced fare is charged.
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...k-card-readers
They often aren't actually necessary if the default route is the
cheaper choice but it is presumably easier just to tell people to
touch as they pass.

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
13:49:16 on Sat, 9 Sep 2017, remarked:

Apart from anything else, this is about wifi coverage which is for data
which is little used for voice calls.

Never used Whats App voice calls, grandad?

No, nor Skype on my mobile, as it happens. Do you know the volumes? I did
say little used not unused.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

In article ,
(ColinR) wrote:

On 10/09/2017 13:02, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

In recent months I've played (and got bored with) a few railway-themed
games (though not while driving!) - I wonder how many railway-themed
game apps there are!

Whilst not as an app, SIAM have railway simulations - mostly based on
DOS. Very good as well if you like that sort of thing.

Why would a train driver in RL want to run railway simulations when they
have real trains to run?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

ColinR wrote:
On 10/09/2017 13:02, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Mark Goodge wrote:
On Sat, 9 Sep 2017 14:53:12 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

wrote:
On 09.09.17 11:42, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Guy Gorton wrote:


But why do people let the world know where they are? Not using the
device is not enough, It has to be switched off to avoid tracking.
Mine is only switched on when I am willing to accept calls or need to
make a call. That only amounts to a small proportion of my waking
hours so it is more often off than on..



My phone OTOH is always on except when it has to be off, eg whilst driving
a train.

Do drivers have to completely switch off their mobiles when at work? Or
can you simply put them on silent or airplane mode?


Off in the cab. Apparently we can't be trusted with airline mode etc ;) .

Well, you might still be playing Angry Birds :-)



In recent months I've played (and got bored with) a few railway-themed
games (though not while driving!) - I wonder how many railway-themed game
apps there are!



Whilst not as an app, SIAM have railway simulations - mostly based on
DOS. Very good as well if you like that sort of thing.


That won't work to pass the time on my iPhone then ;)

I used to have some SIAM games many years ago - presumably they're still on
one of the old hard drives stacked on the shelf 'to be sorted through'.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

In message , at 14:16:05
on Sun, 10 Sep 2017, remarked:
In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
13:49:16 on Sat, 9 Sep 2017, remarked:

Apart from anything else, this is about wifi coverage which is for data
which is little used for voice calls.

Never used Whats App voice calls, grandad?

No, nor Skype on my mobile, as it happens. Do you know the volumes?

https://blog.whatsapp.com/10000625/W...g-100-million-
conversations-every-day

I did say little used not unused.

Every little helps [tm].

I've taken to using Whats-App voice when the person I'm calling is in a
GSM not-spot, but has wifi coverage.
--
Roland Perry

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On 2017-09-09 09:47:23 +0000, Graeme Wall said:

On 09/09/2017 10:37, Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 08/09/2017 17:34, Sam Wilson wrote:
On 2017-09-08 14:40:46 +0000, Martin Coffee said:

On 08/09/17 15:00, Sam Wilson wrote:
On 2017-09-08 13:18:33 +0000, Martin Coffee said:

On 08/09/17 14:03, Recliner wrote:
[snip]
[TfL] said it was talking to the Information Commissioner’s Office about its
plans and passengers could opt out by switching their wifi off. It said
that the phone data was “de-personalised�, with nothing to identify
individuals.

The system works by using 1,070 wifi access points on the Tube network.
They pick up on a code that identifies each phone, the media access control
(MAC) address, and track them from point to point.

Each MAC address was “irreversibly� encrypted, TfL said. Prior to
encryption, a random code is added to each to ensure that the phone cannot
be identified even if the encryption could be reversed. No browsing data
was collected, meaning that emails and the internet habits of passengers
could not be shared with third parties.
[snip]
Let's face it.Â* Even if encrypted, you cannot anonymise a MAC address
as it is unique to each phone.

You can turn it into something that can't be (realistically) turned
back into a MAC address that can be used to identify the
phone/tablet/laptop/whatever.

You don't have to turn the "anonymised" back to a MAC address to
de-anonymise the data.Â* You just encrypt a MAC address and identify the
location data in just the same manner as the tracking occurs. Thus the
location can still be re-associated with the original MAC address.

Sure, if you know a particular MAC address and the encryption procedure
and access to the location data then you may be able (and I note Dr B's
comments in his response) to recreate the key and therefore track the
MAC address.Â* Most of us (and I again I bow to Dr B) probably can't do
that.

Surely the most likely people to want to do this would be criminals
anyway, so criminalising their activities seems slightly pointless.
Deterring casual peepers is probably worth doing.

Surely the problem is if this becomes widespread as eventually you'll
get enough data to identify not just the phone but the individual.

It's fine if it's kept to the tube,Â* but let's take the advertising
angle,Â* presumably the advertisers won't be satisfied with just knowing
what the busiest platform is but would prefer to target their adverts
to one or more groups of people on that platform.

By hooking up a similar system with retailers they work out that of the
group on the platform at 08:30 a significant proportion are e.g.
Waitrose shoppers.Â* And it then goes on and on until you end up pretty
much being able to identify the iindividual, what they buy, where they
live etc without actually ever using any personally identifiable
information.

I'm not sure of the relevant legislation but presumably the only way to
avoid this is that each entity having such a system has to have a
different algorithm (or at least key) for anonymising the MAC data so
each data set remains siloised (but would the supplier of the system
still be able to join the different datasets?)


Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you "targetted
adverts" as you approach various shops.

Hello Mr Yakamoto, welcome back to GAP...

Sam

--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017 08:27:12 +0100
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 09/09/2017 19:12, Graeme Wall wrote:
SMS initially.


It can be SMS, it could even be electronic billboards or display
screens. Imagine walking on to a tube platform, to be greeted by a
display with an advert from Boots - "Hey Someone Somewhere - you haven't
bought Preparation H recently. If your arse grapes are still troubling
you, you'll be pleased to know that we currently have 50p off our jumbo
tube" or similar....

Of course there is always the option - possibly heresy for Millenials - to
switch off wifi on your phone. I know, its radical, but it might just work.

--
Spud

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

In message , at 13:43:05 on Mon, 11 Sep
2017, d remarked:
It can be SMS, it could even be electronic billboards or display
screens. Imagine walking on to a tube platform, to be greeted by a
display with an advert from Boots - "Hey Someone Somewhere - you haven't
bought Preparation H recently. If your arse grapes are still troubling
you, you'll be pleased to know that we currently have 50p off our jumbo
tube" or similar....

Of course there is always the option - possibly heresy for Millenials - to
switch off wifi on your phone. I know, its radical, but it might just work.

You've raised a *very* interesting point. This survey may be of only
that self-selecting subset of passengers who *do* keep their wifi on [on
the tube].

Does the associated article mention whether they attempted to correct
for this built-in bias?
--
Roland Perry

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On 11/09/2017 14:53, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:43:05 on Mon, 11 Sep
2017, d remarked:
It can be SMS,Â* it could even be electronic billboards or display
screens.Â* Imagine walking on to a tube platform, to be greeted by a
display with an advert from Boots - "Hey Someone Somewhere - you haven't
bought Preparation H recently.Â* If your arse grapes are still troubling
you, you'll be pleased to know that we currently have 50p off our jumbo
tube" or similar....

Of course there is always the option - possibly heresy for Millenials
- to
switch off wifi on your phone. I know, its radical, but it might just
work.

You've raised a *very* interesting point. This survey may be of only
that self-selecting subset of passengers who *do* keep their wifi on [on
the tube].

Does the associated article mention whether they attempted to correct
for this built-in bias?

Are you presuming that there is a correlation between whether people
keep wifi on and choose particular routes? If we assume they are
independent then TfLs analysis still stands.

Presumably by analysing ticket data we can see what percentage of
passengers are carrying a device with wi-fi enabled (although in my case
that is often 3 or more - before you ask, personal phone, work phone and
kindle)

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

On 11/09/2017 14:53, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:43:05 on Mon, 11 Sep
2017, d remarked:
It can be SMS,Â* it could even be electronic billboards or display
screens.Â* Imagine walking on to a tube platform, to be greeted by a
display with an advert from Boots - "Hey Someone Somewhere - you haven't
bought Preparation H recently.Â* If your arse grapes are still troubling
you, you'll be pleased to know that we currently have 50p off our jumbo
tube" or similar....

Of course there is always the option - possibly heresy for Millenials
- to
switch off wifi on your phone. I know, its radical, but it might just
work.

You've raised a *very* interesting point. This survey may be of only
that self-selecting subset of passengers who *do* keep their wifi on [on
the tube].

Which will be most, how many people actually bother switching it on and off?


Does the associated article mention whether they attempted to correct
for this built-in bias?

In the noise.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

In message , at 16:46:41 on Mon, 11 Sep
2017, Graeme Wall remarked:

You've raised a *very* interesting point. This survey may be of only
that self-selecting subset of passengers who *do* keep their wifi on
[on the tube].

Which will be most, how many people actually bother switching it on and off?

Who knows? Different demographics perhaps, which is the whole point.

I switch my wifi off whenever out and about because it's too patchy to
warrant the battery consumption.
--
Roland Perry

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

In message , at 15:16:32 on Mon, 11 Sep
2017, Someone Somewhere remarked:
On 11/09/2017 14:53, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:43:05 on Mon, 11 Sep
2017, d remarked:
It can be SMS,* it could even be electronic billboards or display
screens.* Imagine walking on to a tube platform, to be greeted by a
display with an advert from Boots - "Hey Someone Somewhere - you haven't
bought Preparation H recently.* If your arse grapes are still troubling
you, you'll be pleased to know that we currently have 50p off our jumbo
tube" or similar....

Of course there is always the option - possibly heresy for
Millenials - to
switch off wifi on your phone. I know, its radical, but it might
just work.
You've raised a *very* interesting point. This survey may be of only
that self-selecting subset of passengers who *do* keep their wifi on
[on the tube].
Does the associated article mention whether they attempted to
correct for this built-in bias?

Are you presuming that there is a correlation between whether people
keep wifi on and choose particular routes? If we assume they are
independent then TfLs analysis still stands.

Actuall, it's worse than that, because different types of traveller
might have smartphones or not, at all. Older passengers might have fewer
phones/device, and might make decisions based more on step-free or long
term habit, than short term optimisation. Conversely, younger people in
a hurry, with more devices, might bail out to alternative less obvious
routes more impatiently.

Presumably by analysing ticket data

You might be able to make a stab by comparing the number of ticket
barrier entries/exits at a non-interchange station or two, then the
number of unique phones you detect on the platforms.

we can see what percentage of passengers are carrying a device with
wi-fi enabled (although in my case that is often 3 or more - before you
ask, personal phone, work phone and kindle)

Well, that's going to bias the results too, because you'll perhaps show
up as three trips not one. And maybe people with lots of devices are
more prone to be fussy about choosing the quickest route.
--
Roland Perry

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

wrote:
On Sun, 10 Sep 2017 08:27:12 +0100
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 09/09/2017 19:12, Graeme Wall wrote:
SMS initially.


It can be SMS, it could even be electronic billboards or display
screens. Imagine walking on to a tube platform, to be greeted by a
display with an advert from Boots - "Hey Someone Somewhere - you haven't
bought Preparation H recently. If your arse grapes are still troubling
you, you'll be pleased to know that we currently have 50p off our jumbo
tube" or similar....

Of course there is always the option - possibly heresy for Millenials - to
switch off wifi on your phone. I know, its radical, but it might just work.


I usually forget to switch it back on and end up using my 4G allowance at
home...


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
 

In message , at 04:57:17 on Tue, 12 Sep
2017, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:

Of course there is always the option - possibly heresy for Millenials - to
switch off wifi on your phone. I know, its radical, but it might just work.

I usually forget to switch it back on and end up using my 4G allowance at
home...

My Android phone uses wifi in preference to mobile data, when wifi is
available.
--
Roland Perry