Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
From:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071 Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to tackle overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising. Transport for London (TfL) followed 5.6 million phones over four weeks before Christmas via wifi in stations and is assessing how to develop the monitoring system. The trial identified pinch-points in stations, overcrowding on platforms and favoured routes around the network. Controversially, the system could be used to sell advertising, with companies charged more to buy space on platforms where travellers spend the longest time. Anonymised phone data is seen as a far more accurate way to track journeys than entry and exit logs at barriers. An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18 routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes. Transport for London is assessing how best to employ the system in the future and admitted yesterday that it could be used to track passenger movements in “real time”. It said it was talking to the Information Commissioner’s Office about its plans and passengers could opt out by switching their wifi off. It said that the phone data was “de-personalised”, with nothing to identify individuals. The system works by using 1,070 wifi access points on the Tube network. They pick up on a code that identifies each phone, the media access control (MAC) address, and track them from point to point. Each MAC address was “irreversibly” encrypted, TfL said. Prior to encryption, a random code is added to each to ensure that the phone cannot be identified even if the encryption could be reversed. No browsing data was collected, meaning that emails and the internet habits of passengers could not be shared with third parties. Privacy campaigners expressed concern over the technology. Renate Samson, chief executive of Big Brother Watch, said: “Analysing movements of people via their device may provide unique analytical benefits but is still a process of tracking and monitoring as they go about their daily business. It is critical that the public are completely clear on what is being done, when, how and why, and how they can opt out.” TfL, which handles up to 4.8 million journeys a day, spent £100,000 testing the technology in 54 stations. Val Shawcross, deputy mayor for transport, said: “The analysis of secure, de-personalised wifi data could enable us to map the journey patterns of millions of passengers and understand in much greater detail how people move around our transport network. It will provide real benefits, helping TfL tackle overcrowding, provide more information for passengers about their best route and help prioritise investment.” |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 08/09/17 14:03, Recliner wrote:
From: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071 Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to tackle overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising. Transport for London (TfL) followed 5.6 million phones over four weeks before Christmas via wifi in stations and is assessing how to develop the monitoring system. The trial identified pinch-points in stations, overcrowding on platforms and favoured routes around the network. Controversially, the system could be used to sell advertising, with companies charged more to buy space on platforms where travellers spend the longest time. Anonymised phone data is seen as a far more accurate way to track journeys than entry and exit logs at barriers. An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18 routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes. Transport for London is assessing how best to employ the system in the future and admitted yesterday that it could be used to track passenger movements in “real time”. It said it was talking to the Information Commissioner’s Office about its plans and passengers could opt out by switching their wifi off. It said that the phone data was “de-personalised”, with nothing to identify individuals. The system works by using 1,070 wifi access points on the Tube network. They pick up on a code that identifies each phone, the media access control (MAC) address, and track them from point to point. Each MAC address was “irreversibly” encrypted, TfL said. Prior to encryption, a random code is added to each to ensure that the phone cannot be identified even if the encryption could be reversed. No browsing data was collected, meaning that emails and the internet habits of passengers could not be shared with third parties. Privacy campaigners expressed concern over the technology. Renate Samson, chief executive of Big Brother Watch, said: “Analysing movements of people via their device may provide unique analytical benefits but is still a process of tracking and monitoring as they go about their daily business. It is critical that the public are completely clear on what is being done, when, how and why, and how they can opt out.” TfL, which handles up to 4.8 million journeys a day, spent £100,000 testing the technology in 54 stations. Val Shawcross, deputy mayor for transport, said: “The analysis of secure, de-personalised wifi data could enable us to map the journey patterns of millions of passengers and understand in much greater detail how people move around our transport network. It will provide real benefits, helping TfL tackle overcrowding, provide more information for passengers about their best route and help prioritise investment.” Let's face it. Even if encrypted, you cannot anonymise a MAC address as it is unique to each phone. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
In message , at 13:03:37 on Fri, 8 Sep
2017, Recliner remarked: The data showed that even within stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes. Assisted, no doubt, by TfL signage which frequently points to non-optimum routes on account of fearing overloading of the optimum route. -- Roland Perry |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 2017-09-08 13:18:33 +0000, Martin Coffee said:
On 08/09/17 14:03, Recliner wrote: [snip] [TfL] said it was talking to the Information Commissioner’s Office about its plans and passengers could opt out by switching their wifi off. It said that the phone data was “de-personalised”, with nothing to identify individuals. The system works by using 1,070 wifi access points on the Tube network. They pick up on a code that identifies each phone, the media access control (MAC) address, and track them from point to point. Each MAC address was “irreversibly” encrypted, TfL said. Prior to encryption, a random code is added to each to ensure that the phone cannot be identified even if the encryption could be reversed. No browsing data was collected, meaning that emails and the internet habits of passengers could not be shared with third parties. [snip] Let's face it. Even if encrypted, you cannot anonymise a MAC address as it is unique to each phone. You can turn it into something that can't be (realistically) turned back into a MAC address that can be used to identify the phone/tablet/laptop/whatever. Sam -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 08/09/17 15:00, Sam Wilson wrote:
On 2017-09-08 13:18:33 +0000, Martin Coffee said: On 08/09/17 14:03, Recliner wrote: [snip] [TfL] said it was talking to the Information Commissioner’s Office about its plans and passengers could opt out by switching their wifi off. It said that the phone data was “de-personalised”, with nothing to identify individuals. The system works by using 1,070 wifi access points on the Tube network. They pick up on a code that identifies each phone, the media access control (MAC) address, and track them from point to point. Each MAC address was “irreversibly” encrypted, TfL said. Prior to encryption, a random code is added to each to ensure that the phone cannot be identified even if the encryption could be reversed. No browsing data was collected, meaning that emails and the internet habits of passengers could not be shared with third parties. [snip] Let's face it. Even if encrypted, you cannot anonymise a MAC address as it is unique to each phone. You can turn it into something that can't be (realistically) turned back into a MAC address that can be used to identify the phone/tablet/laptop/whatever. You don't have to turn the "anonymised" back to a MAC address to de-anonymise the data. You just encrypt a MAC address and identify the location data in just the same manner as the tracking occurs. Thus the location can still be re-associated with the original MAC address. There has been recent suggestions that it might become a criminal offence to de-anonymise anonymised personal information. It seems to me that this legislation is urgently needed. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 08/09/2017 14:03, Recliner wrote:
From: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071 Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to tackle overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising. Transport for London (TfL) followed 5.6 million phones over four weeks before Christmas via wifi in stations and is assessing how to develop the monitoring system. The trial identified pinch-points in stations, overcrowding on platforms and favoured routes around the network. Controversially, the system could be used to sell advertising, with companies charged more to buy space on platforms where travellers spend the longest time. Anonymised phone data is seen as a far more accurate way to track journeys than entry and exit logs at barriers. An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18 routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes. I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two by tube. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 2017\09\08 14:03, Recliner wrote:
From: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071 Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to tackle overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising. Transport for London (TfL) followed 5.6 million phones over four weeks before Christmas via wifi in stations and is assessing how to develop the monitoring system. The trial identified pinch-points in stations, overcrowding on platforms and favoured routes around the network. Controversially, the system could be used to sell advertising, with companies charged more to buy space on platforms where travellers spend the longest time. How is that controversial! |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
In message , at 16:07:44 on Fri, 8 Sep 2017,
Graeme Wall remarked: An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18 routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes. I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two by tube. Did you include Mornington Crescent? (Reverse at Camden Town.) -- Roland Perry |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
In message , at 16:19:05 on Fri, 8 Sep 2017,
Basil Jet remarked: Controversially, the system could be used to sell advertising, with companies charged more to buy space on platforms where travellers spend the longest time. How is that controversial! With the advertisers, who are bound to end up paying more in total. That's the whole point! -- Roland Perry |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 2017\09\08 16:07, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 08/09/2017 14:03, Recliner wrote: From: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071 An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18 routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes. I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two by tube. Two Tubes: Kennington Elephant (via Northern) Oxford Circus (presumably the fastest) Leicester Sq Piccadilly Circ Green Pk via Picc Green Pk via Vic Euston via Vic Euston via City Branch Euston Sq - Warren Street Great Portland Street - Regents Park Baker Street via Bakerloo Baker Street via Jubilee Bank London Bridge via Jubilee Camden Town (admittedly takes you though Euston twice, but there is less walking at Camden Town) Monument Stockwell Westminster via Circle Embankment via Circle One Tube + one NR: Elephant (via Thameslink) London Bridge via Southeastern Vauxhall Kentish Town via Thameslink West Hampstead via Thameslink Some of these are rather circuitous, but when the network is screwed in various ways most of these could become a reasonable route. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:07:44 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 08/09/2017 14:03, Recliner wrote: From: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071 Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to tackle overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising. Transport for London (TfL) followed 5.6 million phones over four weeks before Christmas via wifi in stations and is assessing how to develop the monitoring system. The trial identified pinch-points in stations, overcrowding on platforms and favoured routes around the network. Controversially, the system could be used to sell advertising, with companies charged more to buy space on platforms where travellers spend the longest time. Anonymised phone data is seen as a far more accurate way to track journeys than entry and exit logs at barriers. An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18 routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes. I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two by tube. http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/09/lon...ficial-report/ has an extract of the report showing 18 diagrams. It's really 17 routes and 'others'. Waterloo - London Bridge - Bank - Liverpool Street - King's Cross is an interesting route choice. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
In message , at 16:55:43 on
Fri, 8 Sep 2017, David Walters remarked: http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/09/lon...ficial-report/ has an extract of the report showing 18 diagrams. It's really 17 routes and 'others'. Interesting that 10x as many going via Baker St use the Bakerloo rather than the Jubilee. Perceptions of the platform-concourse distances at Waterloo, perhaps. Also, did they redact trips made during moderate-serious disruption? -- Roland Perry |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 08/09/17 16:55, David Walters wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:07:44 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote: On 08/09/2017 14:03, Recliner wrote: From: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071 Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to tackle overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising. Transport for London (TfL) followed 5.6 million phones over four weeks before Christmas via wifi in stations and is assessing how to develop the monitoring system. The trial identified pinch-points in stations, overcrowding on platforms and favoured routes around the network. Controversially, the system could be used to sell advertising, with companies charged more to buy space on platforms where travellers spend the longest time. Anonymised phone data is seen as a far more accurate way to track journeys than entry and exit logs at barriers. An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18 routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes. I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two by tube. http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/09/lon...ficial-report/ has an extract of the report showing 18 diagrams. It's really 17 routes and 'others'. Waterloo - London Bridge - Bank - Liverpool Street - King's Cross is an interesting route choice. Figure 3 makes it quite obvious that it quite possible to de anonymise the data given an individual MAC address. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 2017-09-08 14:40:46 +0000, Martin Coffee said:
On 08/09/17 15:00, Sam Wilson wrote: On 2017-09-08 13:18:33 +0000, Martin Coffee said: On 08/09/17 14:03, Recliner wrote: [snip] [TfL] said it was talking to the Information Commissioner’s Office about its plans and passengers could opt out by switching their wifi off. It said that the phone data was “de-personalised”, with nothing to identify individuals. The system works by using 1,070 wifi access points on the Tube network. They pick up on a code that identifies each phone, the media access control (MAC) address, and track them from point to point. Each MAC address was “irreversibly” encrypted, TfL said. Prior to encryption, a random code is added to each to ensure that the phone cannot be identified even if the encryption could be reversed. No browsing data was collected, meaning that emails and the internet habits of passengers could not be shared with third parties. [snip] Let's face it. Even if encrypted, you cannot anonymise a MAC address as it is unique to each phone. You can turn it into something that can't be (realistically) turned back into a MAC address that can be used to identify the phone/tablet/laptop/whatever. You don't have to turn the "anonymised" back to a MAC address to de-anonymise the data. You just encrypt a MAC address and identify the location data in just the same manner as the tracking occurs. Thus the location can still be re-associated with the original MAC address. Sure, if you know a particular MAC address and the encryption procedure and access to the location data then you may be able (and I note Dr B's comments in his response) to recreate the key and therefore track the MAC address. Most of us (and I again I bow to Dr B) probably can't do that. There has been recent suggestions that it might become a criminal offence to de-anonymise anonymised personal information. It seems to me that this legislation is urgently needed. Surely the most likely people to want to do this would be criminals anyway, so criminalising their activities seems slightly pointless. Deterring casual peepers is probably worth doing. Sam -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 2017\09\08 16:50, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2017\09\08 16:07, Graeme Wall wrote: On 08/09/2017 14:03, Recliner wrote: From: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071 An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18 routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes. I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two by tube. Two Tubes: Kennington Elephant (via Northern) Oxford Circus (presumably the fastest) Leicester Sq Piccadilly Circ Green Pk via Picc Green Pk via Vic Euston via Vic Euston via City Branch Euston Sq - Warren Street Great Portland Street - Regents Park Baker Street via Bakerloo Baker Street via Jubilee Bank London Bridge via Jubilee Camden Town (admittedly takes you though Euston twice, but there is less walking at Camden Town) Monument Stockwell Westminster via Circle Embankment via Circle One Tube + one NR: Elephant (via Thameslink) London Bridge via Southeastern Vauxhall Kentish Town via Thameslink West Hampstead via Thameslink Some of these are rather circuitous, but when the network is screwed in various ways most of these could become a reasonable route. Also Warren Street via Vic And there are two lines from Embankment to Waterloo. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
In article ,
(David Walters) wrote: On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:07:44 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote: On 08/09/2017 14:03, Recliner wrote: From: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...ack-commuters- via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd495 07b8be3071 Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to tackle overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising. Transport for London (TfL) followed 5.6 million phones over four weeks before Christmas via wifi in stations and is assessing how to develop the monitoring system. The trial identified pinch-points in stations, overcrowding on platforms and favoured routes around the network. Controversially, the system could be used to sell advertising, with companies charged more to buy space on platforms where travellers spend the longest time. Anonymised phone data is seen as a far more accurate way to track journeys than entry and exit logs at barriers. An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18 routes to go between King_s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes. I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two by tube. http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/09/lon...ng-heres-every thing-we-learned-from-tfls-official-report/ has an extract of the report showing 18 diagrams. It's really 17 routes and 'others'. Waterloo - London Bridge - Bank - Liverpool Street - King's Cross is an interesting route choice. Only used by 0.1% of punters. Not as wacky as the one involving 3 changes with a surprising number of takers (1.2%): King's Cross - Baker St - Green Park - Waterloo. Older readers may remember the "Follow the lights" signage between major central London tube stations. They were fairly small cubes with different colours for different destinations and would presumably have told people to go via Oxford Circus because of the same level interchange there. It's what I'll do next Friday. Anyone remember when they were removed? -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
|
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
In , Recliner writes:
From: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071 Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to tackle overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising. Transport for London (TfL) followed 5.6 million phones over four weeks before Christmas via wifi in stations and is assessing how to develop the monitoring system. The trial identified pinch-points in stations, overcrowding on platforms and favoured routes around the network. Controversially, the system could be used to sell advertising, with companies charged more to buy space on platforms where travellers spend the longest time. Anonymised phone data is seen as a far more accurate way to track journeys than entry and exit logs at barriers. An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18 routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes. Transport for London is assessing how best to employ the system in the future and admitted yesterday that it could be used to track passenger movements in “real time”. It said it was talking to the Information Commissioner’s Office about its plans and passengers could opt out by switching their wifi off. It said that the phone data was “de-personalised”, with nothing to identify individuals. The system works by using 1,070 wifi access points on the Tube network. They pick up on a code that identifies each phone, the media access control (MAC) address, and track them from point to point. Each MAC address was “irreversibly” encrypted, TfL said. Prior to encryption, a random code is added to each to ensure that the phone cannot be identified even if the encryption could be reversed. No browsing data was collected, meaning that emails and the internet habits of passengers could not be shared with third parties. Privacy campaigners expressed concern over the technology. Renate Samson, chief executive of Big Brother Watch, said: “Analysing movements of people via their device may provide unique analytical benefits but is still a process of tracking and monitoring as they go about their daily business. It is critical that the public are completely clear on what is being done, when, how and why, and how they can opt out.” TfL, which handles up to 4.8 million journeys a day, spent £100,000 testing the technology in 54 stations. Val Shawcross, deputy mayor for transport, said: “The analysis of secure, de-personalised wifi data could enable us to map the journey patterns of millions of passengers and understand in much greater detail how people move around our transport network. It will provide real benefits, helping TfL tackle overcrowding, provide more information for passengers about their best route and help prioritise investment.” Malthus and Orwell were spot on! |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
Basil Jet writes:
And there are two lines from Embankment to Waterloo. At one time it would often have been quicker between Waterloo and Embankment to walk over Hungerford Bridge. Though now that Hungerford Bridge has been replaced by the Golden Jubilee Bridges, there is no longer a direct walkway between them and Waterloo station. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On Fri, 08 Sep 2017 13:03:37 GMT, Recliner
wrote: From: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071 Commuters could be tracked using their mobile phones under plans to tackle overcrowding and increase revenue from advertising. Fascinating selection of routes, some of which could be accounted for by friends/relatives travelling together with different destinations but on the same general route. But why do people let the world know where they are? Not using the device is not enough, It has to be switched off to avoid tracking. Mine is only switched on when I am willing to accept calls or need to make a call. That only amounts to a small proportion of my waking hours so it is more often off than on.. Guy Gorton |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
"Graham Murray" wrote in message news:8760cs9wja.fsf@einstein... Basil Jet writes: And there are two lines from Embankment to Waterloo. At one time it would often have been quicker between Waterloo and Embankment to walk over Hungerford Bridge. Though now that Hungerford Bridge has been replaced by the Golden Jubilee Bridges, there is no longer a direct walkway between them and Waterloo station. The walkway, or rather its continuity, was broken long before the Golden Jubilee Bridges were built. -- Mike D |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 08/09/2017 16:21, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:07:44 on Fri, 8 Sep 2017, Graeme Wall remarked: *An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18* routes to go between King’s Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest* stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked* failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within* stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between* platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes. I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two by tube. Did you include Mornington Crescent? (Reverse at Camden Town.) But, traditionally, invoking Mornington Crescent ends the journey. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 08/09/2017 17:34, Sam Wilson wrote:
On 2017-09-08 14:40:46 +0000, Martin Coffee said: On 08/09/17 15:00, Sam Wilson wrote: On 2017-09-08 13:18:33 +0000, Martin Coffee said: On 08/09/17 14:03, Recliner wrote: [snip] [TfL] said it was talking to the Information Commissioner’s Office about its plans and passengers could opt out by switching their wifi off. It said that the phone data was “de-personalised”, with nothing to identify individuals. The system works by using 1,070 wifi access points on the Tube network. They pick up on a code that identifies each phone, the media access control (MAC) address, and track them from point to point. Each MAC address was “irreversibly” encrypted, TfL said. Prior to encryption, a random code is added to each to ensure that the phone cannot be identified even if the encryption could be reversed. No browsing data was collected, meaning that emails and the internet habits of passengers could not be shared with third parties. [snip] Let's face it.* Even if encrypted, you cannot anonymise a MAC address as it is unique to each phone. You can turn it into something that can't be (realistically) turned back into a MAC address that can be used to identify the phone/tablet/laptop/whatever. You don't have to turn the "anonymised" back to a MAC address to de-anonymise the data.* You just encrypt a MAC address and identify the location data in just the same manner as the tracking occurs. Thus the location can still be re-associated with the original MAC address. Sure, if you know a particular MAC address and the encryption procedure and access to the location data then you may be able (and I note Dr B's comments in his response) to recreate the key and therefore track the MAC address.* Most of us (and I again I bow to Dr B) probably can't do that. Surely the most likely people to want to do this would be criminals anyway, so criminalising their activities seems slightly pointless. Deterring casual peepers is probably worth doing. Surely the problem is if this becomes widespread as eventually you'll get enough data to identify not just the phone but the individual. It's fine if it's kept to the tube, but let's take the advertising angle, presumably the advertisers won't be satisfied with just knowing what the busiest platform is but would prefer to target their adverts to one or more groups of people on that platform. By hooking up a similar system with retailers they work out that of the group on the platform at 08:30 a significant proportion are e.g. Waitrose shoppers. And it then goes on and on until you end up pretty much being able to identify the iindividual, what they buy, where they live etc without actually ever using any personally identifiable information. I'm not sure of the relevant legislation but presumably the only way to avoid this is that each entity having such a system has to have a different algorithm (or at least key) for anonymising the MAC data so each data set remains siloised (but would the supplier of the system still be able to join the different datasets?) |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
In message , at 10:23:36 on Sat, 9 Sep 2017,
Graeme Wall remarked: I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two by tube. Did you include Mornington Crescent? (Reverse at Camden Town.) But, traditionally, invoking Mornington Crescent ends the journey. Or in this case ends the game of trying to think of more odd routes. -- Roland Perry |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 09/09/2017 10:37, Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 08/09/2017 17:34, Sam Wilson wrote: On 2017-09-08 14:40:46 +0000, Martin Coffee said: On 08/09/17 15:00, Sam Wilson wrote: On 2017-09-08 13:18:33 +0000, Martin Coffee said: On 08/09/17 14:03, Recliner wrote: [snip] [TfL] said it was talking to the Information Commissioner’s Office about its plans and passengers could opt out by switching their wifi off. It said that the phone data was “de-personalised”, with nothing to identify individuals. The system works by using 1,070 wifi access points on the Tube network. They pick up on a code that identifies each phone, the media access control (MAC) address, and track them from point to point. Each MAC address was “irreversibly” encrypted, TfL said. Prior to encryption, a random code is added to each to ensure that the phone cannot be identified even if the encryption could be reversed. No browsing data was collected, meaning that emails and the internet habits of passengers could not be shared with third parties. [snip] Let's face it.* Even if encrypted, you cannot anonymise a MAC address as it is unique to each phone. You can turn it into something that can't be (realistically) turned back into a MAC address that can be used to identify the phone/tablet/laptop/whatever. You don't have to turn the "anonymised" back to a MAC address to de-anonymise the data.* You just encrypt a MAC address and identify the location data in just the same manner as the tracking occurs. Thus the location can still be re-associated with the original MAC address. Sure, if you know a particular MAC address and the encryption procedure and access to the location data then you may be able (and I note Dr B's comments in his response) to recreate the key and therefore track the MAC address.* Most of us (and I again I bow to Dr B) probably can't do that. Surely the most likely people to want to do this would be criminals anyway, so criminalising their activities seems slightly pointless. Deterring casual peepers is probably worth doing. Surely the problem is if this becomes widespread as eventually you'll get enough data to identify not just the phone but the individual. It's fine if it's kept to the tube,* but let's take the advertising angle,* presumably the advertisers won't be satisfied with just knowing what the busiest platform is but would prefer to target their adverts to one or more groups of people on that platform. By hooking up a similar system with retailers they work out that of the group on the platform at 08:30 a significant proportion are e.g. Waitrose shoppers.* And it then goes on and on until you end up pretty much being able to identify the iindividual, what they buy, where they live etc without actually ever using any personally identifiable information. I'm not sure of the relevant legislation but presumably the only way to avoid this is that each entity having such a system has to have a different algorithm (or at least key) for anonymising the MAC data so each data set remains siloised (but would the supplier of the system still be able to join the different datasets?) Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you "targetted adverts" as you approach various shops. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 09/09/2017 10:41, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:23:36 on Sat, 9 Sep 2017, Graeme Wall remarked: I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two by tube. *Did you include Mornington Crescent? (Reverse at Camden Town.) But, traditionally, invoking Mornington Crescent ends the journey. Or in this case ends the game of trying to think of more odd routes. Is this where I quote G K Chesterton? -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
Guy Gorton wrote:
But why do people let the world know where they are? Not using the device is not enough, It has to be switched off to avoid tracking. Mine is only switched on when I am willing to accept calls or need to make a call. That only amounts to a small proportion of my waking hours so it is more often off than on.. My phone OTOH is always on except when it has to be off, eg whilst driving a train. I rarely make calls and even more rarely answer incoming calls. When travelling by tube I often read usenet, as it's an offline thing, whereas trying to read Facebook or anything web or forum based is difficult with just seconds of wifi at every station stop. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
Graeme Wall writes:
Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you "targetted adverts" as you approach various shops. How effective is this? Maybe I am unusual, but when I am shopping my phone is normally in my pocket, so I would not see these adverts. Apart from incoming (phone) calls, the only time I would look at my phone in a shopping mall is when sat in a coffee shop or restaurant. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 09/09/2017 10:37, Someone Somewhere wrote: On 08/09/2017 17:34, Sam Wilson wrote: On 2017-09-08 14:40:46 +0000, Martin Coffee said: On 08/09/17 15:00, Sam Wilson wrote: On 2017-09-08 13:18:33 +0000, Martin Coffee said: On 08/09/17 14:03, Recliner wrote: [snip] [TfL] said it was talking to the Information Commissioner’s Office about its plans and passengers could opt out by switching their wifi off. It said that the phone data was “de-personalised”, with nothing to identify individuals. The system works by using 1,070 wifi access points on the Tube network. They pick up on a code that identifies each phone, the media access control (MAC) address, and track them from point to point. Each MAC address was “irreversibly” encrypted, TfL said. Prior to encryption, a random code is added to each to ensure that the phone cannot be identified even if the encryption could be reversed. No browsing data was collected, meaning that emails and the internet habits of passengers could not be shared with third parties. [snip] Let's face it.* Even if encrypted, you cannot anonymise a MAC address as it is unique to each phone. You can turn it into something that can't be (realistically) turned back into a MAC address that can be used to identify the phone/tablet/laptop/whatever. You don't have to turn the "anonymised" back to a MAC address to de-anonymise the data.* You just encrypt a MAC address and identify the location data in just the same manner as the tracking occurs. Thus the location can still be re-associated with the original MAC address. Sure, if you know a particular MAC address and the encryption procedure and access to the location data then you may be able (and I note Dr B's comments in his response) to recreate the key and therefore track the MAC address.* Most of us (and I again I bow to Dr B) probably can't do that. Surely the most likely people to want to do this would be criminals anyway, so criminalising their activities seems slightly pointless. Deterring casual peepers is probably worth doing. Surely the problem is if this becomes widespread as eventually you'll get enough data to identify not just the phone but the individual. It's fine if it's kept to the tube,* but let's take the advertising angle,* presumably the advertisers won't be satisfied with just knowing what the busiest platform is but would prefer to target their adverts to one or more groups of people on that platform. By hooking up a similar system with retailers they work out that of the group on the platform at 08:30 a significant proportion are e.g. Waitrose shoppers.* And it then goes on and on until you end up pretty much being able to identify the iindividual, what they buy, where they live etc without actually ever using any personally identifiable information. I'm not sure of the relevant legislation but presumably the only way to avoid this is that each entity having such a system has to have a different algorithm (or at least key) for anonymising the MAC data so each data set remains siloised (but would the supplier of the system still be able to join the different datasets?) Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you "targetted adverts" as you approach various shops. 'Send you' by what means? Anna Noyd-Dryver |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 09.09.17 11:42, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Guy Gorton wrote: But why do people let the world know where they are? Not using the device is not enough, It has to be switched off to avoid tracking. Mine is only switched on when I am willing to accept calls or need to make a call. That only amounts to a small proportion of my waking hours so it is more often off than on.. My phone OTOH is always on except when it has to be off, eg whilst driving a train. Do drivers have to completely switch off their mobiles when at work? Or can you simply put them on silent or airplane mode? |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
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Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
... Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you "targetted adverts" as you approach various shops. 'Send you' by what means? Targeted ads via Facebook, Twitter, Google or any other apps on your phone thgat have access to your location. It's not necessary for you to have a 'phone switched on in order for you to be tracked: Gatwick airport (a shopping mall if ever there was one) have a system that does it all with CCTV and face recognition. It's all about working out how long it takes people to get through the airport and the places they visit on the way, especially for departures. I visited a consumer technology exhibition at one of the clients I was working at a few years ago. We were invited to stand in front of a camera and watch on a nearby screen while a system worked our age, sex, social class and other information, displaying the results next to our faces on the screen. For me it was fairly close within a few seconds (certainly close enough for targeting ads) and very accurate within a minute. I think the other information included how we were feeling that day... -- DAS |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
"D A Stocks" writes:
I visited a consumer technology exhibition at one of the clients I was working at a few years ago. We were invited to stand in front of a camera and watch on a nearby screen while a system worked our age, sex, social class and other information, displaying the results next to our faces on the screen. For me it was fairly close within a few seconds (certainly close enough for targeting ads) and very accurate within a minute. I think the other information included how we were feeling that day... I do not know if it is a permanent exhibit, but I saw this in the Science Museum a few months ago. It was popular with am almost permanent queue to 'have a go'. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 2017\09\09 10:48, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 09/09/2017 10:41, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:23:36 on Sat, 9 Sep 2017, Graeme Wall remarked: I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two by tube. *Did you include Mornington Crescent? (Reverse at Camden Town.) But, traditionally, invoking Mornington Crescent ends the journey. Or in this case ends the game of trying to think of more odd routes. Is this where I quote G K Chesterton? Only if you want us to know what the hell you're talking about ;-) |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:07:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote: On 08/09/2017 14:03, Recliner wrote: An evaluation of the trial, published today, shows that passengers used 18 routes to go between Kings Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo, the busiest stations on the network, with 40 per cent of people who were tracked failing to take the two fastest routes. The data showed that even within stations a third of passengers did not use the quickest routes between platforms and could be wasting up to two minutes. I'm still trying to work out 18 different ways to travel between the two by tube. The Gizmodo article (which is far more detailed than the newspaper reports) includes a diagram. http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/09/lon...ficial-report/ And it's not actually 18 different ways. It's 17 different ways that, individually, have at least 0.1% of the journey traffic, plus "others". Mark |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 17:17:13 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 16:55:43 on Fri, 8 Sep 2017, David Walters remarked: http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/09/lon...ficial-report/ has an extract of the report showing 18 diagrams. It's really 17 routes and 'others'. Interesting that 10x as many going via Baker St use the Bakerloo rather than the Jubilee. Perceptions of the platform-concourse distances at Waterloo, perhaps. Also, did they redact trips made during moderate-serious disruption? No, because that was part of the point - to see how disruption affects people's travel patterns. The Gizmodo article goes into a lot more detail than the various newspaper reports, and answers many of the questions posed in this thread :-) Mark |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On Fri, 08 Sep 2017 13:03:37 GMT, Recliner
wrote: From: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-for-london-may-track-commuters-via-phones-to-reduce-overcrowding-b0ss982j7?shareToken=d3406a5e9a7b95fb4dd49507b8be3 071 I don't think anybody's linked to it yet (at least, not in this thread), but the full report is he http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf Also (and this has been mentioned, but I'll mention it again because it's a much better write-up than most newspaper accounts), this Gizmodo article describes the findings very well: http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/09/lon...ficial-report/ Mark |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 09/09/2017 13:16, Graham Murray wrote:
Graeme Wall writes: Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you "targetted adverts" as you approach various shops. How effective is this? Maybe I am unusual, but when I am shopping my phone is normally in my pocket, so I would not see these adverts. Apart from incoming (phone) calls, the only time I would look at my phone in a shopping mall is when sat in a coffee shop or restaurant. I believe it has only happened in the States so far, but judging by the number of young women one sees walking round with their smart phones permanently in front of their faces, it has the potential to be quite effective. Also I think the initial adverts are text messages so you would hear an alert. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Tube passengers tracked by phone WiFi
On 09/09/2017 14:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote: On 09/09/2017 10:37, Someone Somewhere wrote: On 08/09/2017 17:34, Sam Wilson wrote: On 2017-09-08 14:40:46 +0000, Martin Coffee said: On 08/09/17 15:00, Sam Wilson wrote: On 2017-09-08 13:18:33 +0000, Martin Coffee said: On 08/09/17 14:03, Recliner wrote: [snip] [TfL] said it was talking to the Information Commissioner’s Office about its plans and passengers could opt out by switching their wifi off. It said that the phone data was “de-personalised”, with nothing to identify individuals. The system works by using 1,070 wifi access points on the Tube network. They pick up on a code that identifies each phone, the media access control (MAC) address, and track them from point to point. Each MAC address was “irreversibly” encrypted, TfL said. Prior to encryption, a random code is added to each to ensure that the phone cannot be identified even if the encryption could be reversed. No browsing data was collected, meaning that emails and the internet habits of passengers could not be shared with third parties. [snip] Let's face it.* Even if encrypted, you cannot anonymise a MAC address as it is unique to each phone. You can turn it into something that can't be (realistically) turned back into a MAC address that can be used to identify the phone/tablet/laptop/whatever. You don't have to turn the "anonymised" back to a MAC address to de-anonymise the data.* You just encrypt a MAC address and identify the location data in just the same manner as the tracking occurs. Thus the location can still be re-associated with the original MAC address. Sure, if you know a particular MAC address and the encryption procedure and access to the location data then you may be able (and I note Dr B's comments in his response) to recreate the key and therefore track the MAC address.* Most of us (and I again I bow to Dr B) probably can't do that. Surely the most likely people to want to do this would be criminals anyway, so criminalising their activities seems slightly pointless. Deterring casual peepers is probably worth doing. Surely the problem is if this becomes widespread as eventually you'll get enough data to identify not just the phone but the individual. It's fine if it's kept to the tube,* but let's take the advertising angle,* presumably the advertisers won't be satisfied with just knowing what the busiest platform is but would prefer to target their adverts to one or more groups of people on that platform. By hooking up a similar system with retailers they work out that of the group on the platform at 08:30 a significant proportion are e.g. Waitrose shoppers.* And it then goes on and on until you end up pretty much being able to identify the iindividual, what they buy, where they live etc without actually ever using any personally identifiable information. I'm not sure of the relevant legislation but presumably the only way to avoid this is that each entity having such a system has to have a different algorithm (or at least key) for anonymising the MAC data so each data set remains siloised (but would the supplier of the system still be able to join the different datasets?) Shopping malls have been doing a similar thing to send you "targetted adverts" as you approach various shops. 'Send you' by what means? SMS initially. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
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