On 14/07/2018 20:26, Recliner wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 14/07/2018 13:31, Recliner wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:22:45 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the
local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight
at 50 amps?

The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use,
an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's
use.

The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it
becomes just as much in demand as "peak".

3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses.

The street main is usually 200A per phase, though.

Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps
1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses.

Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v)
will get their supply from.

The future is hydrogen.


As it has been for 50 years…

50 years ago, you couldn't drive a hydrogen-powered car from John
O'Groats to Land's End, as Autocar did last month:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/john-o%E2%80%99groats-land%E2%80%99s-end-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car


You could have done, though I don't know if anyone ever did. Also
possible in a gas-turbine car and one or two other exotic beasts around
that time.

No, you couldn't have done it then with a hydrogen-powered car, both
because they didn't exist and fhere weren't any hydrogen filling stations.


No filling stations certainly, but the odd experimental vehicle.



--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 14/07/2018 20:26, Recliner wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 14/07/2018 13:31, Recliner wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:22:45 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the
local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight
at 50 amps?

The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use,
an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's
use.

The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it
becomes just as much in demand as "peak".

3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses.

The street main is usually 200A per phase, though.

Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps
1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses.

Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v)
will get their supply from.

The future is hydrogen.


As it has been for 50 years…

50 years ago, you couldn't drive a hydrogen-powered car from John
O'Groats to Land's End, as Autocar did last month:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/john-o%E2%80%99groats-land%E2%80%99s-end-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car


You could have done, though I don't know if anyone ever did. Also
possible in a gas-turbine car and one or two other exotic beasts around
that time.

No, you couldn't have done it then with a hydrogen-powered car, both
because they didn't exist and fhere weren't any hydrogen filling stations.


No filling stations certainly, but the odd experimental vehicle.

Were there any hydrogen-powered cars back then? I don't think so. There
certainly weren't any fuel-cell cars, let alone any hydrogen cars with a
good range.

Now, you can do it in off-the-shelf, standard, unmodified hydrogen cars
from multiple manufacturers, refuelling at commercial hydrogen filling
stations along the way. No need for any back-up vehicle, and no
laboratories involved.

I think 2018 was the first year it was possible, but even now, the route
takes careful planning. It'll soon be much easier, as more hydrogen filling
stations open.

Recliner wrote:
Were there any hydrogen-powered cars back then? I don't think so. There
certainly weren't any fuel-cell cars, let alone any hydrogen cars with a
good range.

The first hydrogen car is recorded as prototyped in 1807.
However some Russian trucks from 1941 sound rather more plausible:
http://naukarus.com/the-mysterious-i...drogen-century
using an interesting fuel source - degraded hydrogen from lowered barrage
balloons. If it was WWII you might have been able to cobble together
a route going past enough barrage balloon stations to make it work.

Theo

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the
local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight
at 50 amps?

The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use,
an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's
use.

The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it
becomes just as much in demand as "peak".

3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses.

The street main is usually 200A per phase, though.

Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps
1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses.

Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v)
will get their supply from.

It seems to me the whole charging problem of mass ownership of electric cars
has been kicked into the long grass. As usual politicians will only react when
they have to when the load on the grid either local or national becomes critical
whereupon headless chicken mode will be engaged.

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:31:15 +0100
Recliner wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:22:45 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the
local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight
at 50 amps?

The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use,
an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's
use.

The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it
becomes just as much in demand as "peak".

3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses.

The street main is usually 200A per phase, though.

Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps
1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses.

Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v)
will get their supply from.

The future is hydrogen.


As it has been for 50 years…

50 years ago, you couldn't drive a hydrogen-powered car from John
O'Groats to Land's End, as Autocar did last month:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...s-land%E2%80%9
9s-end-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car

The physics hasn't changed in 50 years. I read somewhere (can't find it) that
using hydrogen for energy is so inefficient with our current grid of mixed
fossil fuel power stations that you'd create a lot less total CO2 just using a
diesel vehicle though far better to use the electricity you waste on creating
H2 just to convert it back to electricity again to charge a battery vehicle.

Also hydrogen is hard to transport and store in large amounts and requires a
lot of electricity to compress it over and above that required to create it
from water or (even worse) steamed out of natural gas in the first place.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 04:09:03PM +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local
substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50
amps?

They won't all need to fully recharge a car every night.

Of the many cars parked on a street, plenty of them just aren't used
most days. And of those that are used on any given day, plenty aren't
used much - just a trip to the shops, or the school run, or to a nearby
employer.

--
David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness

Only some sort of ghastly dehumanised moron would want to get
rid of Routemasters
-- Ken Livingstone, four years before he got rid of 'em

In message , at 12:08:38
on Mon, 16 Jul 2018, David Cantrell remarked:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local
substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50
amps?

They won't all need to fully recharge a car every night.

Of the many cars parked on a street, plenty of them just aren't used
most days. And of those that are used on any given day, plenty aren't
used much - just a trip to the shops, or the school run, or to a nearby
employer.

This depends a lot on the local demographic. There are plenty of estates
where at least one breadwinner per household is likely to drive to work
(and the national average commute is 67% by car, 30mins).

Where I live that's dominated by the 35 mile round trip to Cambridge,
unless they take the fastest route which is 50 miles round trip.
--
Roland Perry

On 16/07/2018 12:29, Roland Perry wrote:
Where I live that's dominated by the 35 mile round trip to Cambridge,
unless they take the fastest route which is 50 miles round trip.

At least with electric cars, there's a real incentive to take the most
fuel efficient route, so you don't need to charge every night.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In message , at 13:36:13 on Mon, 16
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:

Where I live that's dominated by the 35 mile round trip to Cambridge,
unless they take the fastest route which is 50 miles round trip.

At least with electric cars, there's a real incentive to take the most
fuel efficient route, so you don't need to charge every night.

I'm not sure how an individual balances the prospect of getting a
sufficient overnight charge, with sitting in a worse traffic jam in
order to eke out the battery on the way to/from work.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 13:42:22 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:36:13 on Mon, 16
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:

Where I live that's dominated by the 35 mile round trip to Cambridge,
unless they take the fastest route which is 50 miles round trip.

At least with electric cars, there's a real incentive to take the most
fuel efficient route, so you don't need to charge every night.

I'm not sure how an individual balances the prospect of getting a
sufficient overnight charge, with sitting in a worse traffic jam in
order to eke out the battery on the way to/from work.

Stop-start traffic isn't efficient even in an electric car because usually
the vehicle is moving too slowly for regeneration to be effective. They could
well be better off taking the longer route.