London Banter

London Banter (https://www.londonbanter.co.uk/forum.php)
-   London Transport (https://www.londonbanter.co.uk/london-transport/)
-   -   Modern DC EMUs (https://www.londonbanter.co.uk/london-transport/1646-modern-dc-emus.html)

Dominic April 20th 04 12:29 AM

Modern DC EMUs
 
With an older DC EMU such as a 4-CEP I imagine that the driving motor
car can be uncoupled from the set and run independently under its own
power, and that 2 such cars could form a 2 car train.

Are the driving motor cars of modern DC EMUs such as Networkers,
Junipers, Electrostars and Desiros independent multiple units in this
way? It seems that no set is ever run without a pantograph trailer car
- is this because the motor cars rely on the electronics or other
systems in this car, even when running from the DC 3rd rail? Or can
the motor cars run seperately from the rest of the set?

Thanks,

Dominic

Chris Rogers April 20th 04 08:12 AM

Modern DC EMUs
 
(Dominic) wrote in message . com...
With an older DC EMU such as a 4-CEP I imagine that the driving motor
car can be uncoupled from the set and run independently under its own
power, and that 2 such cars could form a 2 car train.


This is not always the case with Mk1 EMUs - as I understand it, in
some units (like the 4-CIG IIRC) the driving cars are not the motor
cars - the units have separate driving trailers and a single motor
car. In this case, the 3rd Rail pickup shoes are on the
leading/trailing vehicles and not the motor car itself, so apart from
having no cab, an isolated motor car like this would have no power
supply.

However, in principle, I believe you are correct with some stock which
indeed has driving motor cars.

Are the driving motor cars of modern DC EMUs such as Networkers,
Junipers, Electrostars and Desiros independent multiple units in this
way? It seems that no set is ever run without a pantograph trailer car
- is this because the motor cars rely on the electronics or other
systems in this car, even when running from the DC 3rd rail? Or can
the motor cars run seperately from the rest of the set?


Modern stock introduces problems through a concept known as
'distributed systems'. The equipment required for the train to work is
not fitted exclusively on the driving or motor cars, but is
distributed along the length of the train. In this case, by removing
one or more cars from the set, some essential equipment would be
removed too.

In the case of Voyagers, you would expect that any formation of 2 or
more cars would be possible as each car has its own engine - in fact
because of distributed systems and other technical limitations, the
minimum consist of a unit is 4 cars.

I was told by a technician that in the case of Class 444/450 Desiros
that it is a very difficult procedure to separate cars in a set
anyway, because they are semi-permanently coupled and not designed to
be separated.

Hope this is of interest,

Chris.

P.S. This is written from my own, perhaps limited, knowledge and
understanding of the technical aspects. I am not from a railway
technical background, but believe this information to be correct. I am
sure more knowlegeable contributors will confirm or refute what I have
said.

Lee Osborne April 20th 04 08:19 AM

Modern DC EMUs
 

"Chris Rogers" wrote in message
om...
(Dominic) wrote in message

. com...
With an older DC EMU such as a 4-CEP I imagine that the driving motor
car can be uncoupled from the set and run independently under its own
power, and that 2 such cars could form a 2 car train.


This is not always the case with Mk1 EMUs - as I understand it, in
some units (like the 4-CIG IIRC) the driving cars are not the motor
cars - the units have separate driving trailers and a single motor
car. In this case, the 3rd Rail pickup shoes are on the
leading/trailing vehicles and not the motor car itself, so apart from
having no cab, an isolated motor car like this would have no power
supply.

However, in principle, I believe you are correct with some stock which
indeed has driving motor cars.

Are the driving motor cars of modern DC EMUs such as Networkers,
Junipers, Electrostars and Desiros independent multiple units in this
way? It seems that no set is ever run without a pantograph trailer car
- is this because the motor cars rely on the electronics or other
systems in this car, even when running from the DC 3rd rail? Or can
the motor cars run seperately from the rest of the set?


Modern stock introduces problems through a concept known as
'distributed systems'. The equipment required for the train to work is
not fitted exclusively on the driving or motor cars, but is
distributed along the length of the train. In this case, by removing
one or more cars from the set, some essential equipment would be
removed too.

In the case of Voyagers, you would expect that any formation of 2 or
more cars would be possible as each car has its own engine - in fact
because of distributed systems and other technical limitations, the
minimum consist of a unit is 4 cars.

I was told by a technician that in the case of Class 444/450 Desiros
that it is a very difficult procedure to separate cars in a set
anyway, because they are semi-permanently coupled and not designed to
be separated.

Hope this is of interest,

Chris.

P.S. This is written from my own, perhaps limited, knowledge and
understanding of the technical aspects. I am not from a railway
technical background, but believe this information to be correct. I am
sure more knowlegeable contributors will confirm or refute what I have
said.


I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but apparently the two different
manufacturers of class 465 units used different equipment layouts, and one
type of unit can operate without its trailer cars, and the other cannot, and
the two builds of vehicle cannot be mixed in one unit.

I seem to remember reading this in RAIL when the units were fairly new.

Lee



Colin Rosenstiel April 20th 04 08:21 AM

Modern DC EMUs
 
In article ,
(Dominic) wrote:

With an older DC EMU such as a 4-CEP I imagine that the driving motor
car can be uncoupled from the set and run independently under its own
power, and that 2 such cars could form a 2 car train.

Are the driving motor cars of modern DC EMUs such as Networkers,
Junipers, Electrostars and Desiros independent multiple units in this
way? It seems that no set is ever run without a pantograph trailer car
- is this because the motor cars rely on the electronics or other
systems in this car, even when running from the DC 3rd rail? Or can
the motor cars run seperately from the rest of the set?


It's the control electronics which cover more than one motor car with AC
motors isn't it?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Ian F. April 20th 04 10:02 AM

Modern DC EMUs
 
"Chris Rogers" wrote in message
om...

This is not always the case with Mk1 EMUs


Not sure about that - maybe if Rod Hull had had a newer one, he might be
alive today...

;-)

Ian


Jack Taylor April 20th 04 10:34 AM

Modern DC EMUs
 

"Chris Rogers" wrote in message
om...
(Dominic) wrote in message

. com...
With an older DC EMU such as a 4-CEP I imagine that the driving motor
car can be uncoupled from the set and run independently under its own
power, and that 2 such cars could form a 2 car train.


This is not always the case with Mk1 EMUs - as I understand it, in
some units (like the 4-CIG IIRC) the driving cars are not the motor
cars - the units have separate driving trailers and a single motor
car. In this case, the 3rd Rail pickup shoes are on the
leading/trailing vehicles and not the motor car itself, so apart from
having no cab, an isolated motor car like this would have no power
supply.

However, in principle, I believe you are correct with some stock which
indeed has driving motor cars.


Absolutely. The shortest formation for a CEP unit is 2-CEP (both driving
vehicles, which have cabs, pick-up shoes and are motored), whilst the
shortest formation for a CIG or VEP is 3-CIG/3-VEP, for the reasons that you
give (driving trailers and a centre motored vehicle).



Roger H. Bennett April 20th 04 10:55 AM

Modern DC EMUs
 
"Jack Taylor" wrote in message
...
Absolutely. The shortest formation for a CEP unit is 2-CEP (both driving
vehicles, which have cabs, pick-up shoes and are motored), whilst the
shortest formation for a CIG or VEP is 3-CIG/3-VEP, for the reasons that

you
give (driving trailers and a centre motored vehicle).


I don't know how it affects specific units, but the other thing nobody has
mentioned is the compressor and air reservoirs. If those aren't on the
driving vehicle, it's going nowhere, even with shoes, motors and a cab.

Roger



Boltar April 20th 04 11:45 AM

Modern DC EMUs
 
(Dominic) wrote in message . com...
Are the driving motor cars of modern DC EMUs such as Networkers,
Junipers, Electrostars and Desiros independent multiple units in this
way? It seems that no set is ever run without a pantograph trailer car
- is this because the motor cars rely on the electronics or other
systems in this car, even when running from the DC 3rd rail? Or can
the motor cars run seperately from the rest of the set?


AFAIK all the gubbins and even the motors are in the car that has the
pantograph whereas the cars at the front and the rear which although they
have no motors have the shoegear.

B2003

Dominic April 20th 04 04:19 PM

Modern DC EMUs
 
(Chris Rogers) wrote in message . com...
(Dominic) wrote in message . com...
With an older DC EMU such as a 4-CEP I imagine that the driving motor
car can be uncoupled from the set and run independently under its own
power, and that 2 such cars could form a 2 car train.


This is not always the case with Mk1 EMUs - as I understand it, in
some units (like the 4-CIG IIRC) the driving cars are not the motor
cars - the units have separate driving trailers and a single motor
car. In this case, the 3rd Rail pickup shoes are on the
leading/trailing vehicles and not the motor car itself, so apart from
having no cab, an isolated motor car like this would have no power
supply.

However, in principle, I believe you are correct with some stock which
indeed has driving motor cars.

You're right - I think these units with a central non-driving motor
car started with the 4-CIGs and includes classes 313, 455 and 319.
Equipment on these units appears to be so distributed that I doubt
they can run with less than 4 cars.

Are the driving motor cars of modern DC EMUs such as Networkers,
Junipers, Electrostars and Desiros independent multiple units in this
way? It seems that no set is ever run without a pantograph trailer car
- is this because the motor cars rely on the electronics or other
systems in this car, even when running from the DC 3rd rail? Or can
the motor cars run seperately from the rest of the set?


Modern stock introduces problems through a concept known as
'distributed systems'. The equipment required for the train to work is
not fitted exclusively on the driving or motor cars, but is
distributed along the length of the train. In this case, by removing
one or more cars from the set, some essential equipment would be
removed too.

In the case of Voyagers, you would expect that any formation of 2 or
more cars would be possible as each car has its own engine - in fact
because of distributed systems and other technical limitations, the
minimum consist of a unit is 4 cars.

That's interesting. I didn't know this inflexibility applied to
Voyagers. I thought distributed systems were less common on DMUs.
Maybe it's because of their 3-phase electric transmission?

I was told by a technician that in the case of Class 444/450 Desiros
that it is a very difficult procedure to separate cars in a set
anyway, because they are semi-permanently coupled and not designed to
be separated.

Hope this is of interest,

Chris.

Thanks a lot. Many units have bar couplers within sets, but the number
of cables and hoses connecting Desiro cars is quite incredible.

Dominic April 20th 04 04:25 PM

Modern DC EMUs
 
"Lee Osborne" wrote in message ...

SNIP

I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but apparently the two different
manufacturers of class 465 units used different equipment layouts, and one
type of unit can operate without its trailer cars, and the other cannot, and
the two builds of vehicle cannot be mixed in one unit.

I seem to remember reading this in RAIL when the units were fairly new.

Lee


That's interesting. I wonder if the GEC Alsthom sets are the ones that
can operate as 2 car units, since GEC Alsthom built the 2 car class
466 units. There's a great history of the Networkers at
http://www.semg.org.uk/gallery/class465_1.html

Dominic


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:20 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2006 LondonBanter.co.uk