London Transport (uk.transport.london) Discussion of all forms of transport in London.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old April 20th 04, 12:29 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Feb 2004
Posts: 40
Default Modern DC EMUs

With an older DC EMU such as a 4-CEP I imagine that the driving motor
car can be uncoupled from the set and run independently under its own
power, and that 2 such cars could form a 2 car train.

Are the driving motor cars of modern DC EMUs such as Networkers,
Junipers, Electrostars and Desiros independent multiple units in this
way? It seems that no set is ever run without a pantograph trailer car
- is this because the motor cars rely on the electronics or other
systems in this car, even when running from the DC 3rd rail? Or can
the motor cars run seperately from the rest of the set?

Thanks,

Dominic

  #2   Report Post  
Old April 20th 04, 08:12 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Apr 2004
Posts: 1
Default Modern DC EMUs

(Dominic) wrote in message . com...
With an older DC EMU such as a 4-CEP I imagine that the driving motor
car can be uncoupled from the set and run independently under its own
power, and that 2 such cars could form a 2 car train.


This is not always the case with Mk1 EMUs - as I understand it, in
some units (like the 4-CIG IIRC) the driving cars are not the motor
cars - the units have separate driving trailers and a single motor
car. In this case, the 3rd Rail pickup shoes are on the
leading/trailing vehicles and not the motor car itself, so apart from
having no cab, an isolated motor car like this would have no power
supply.

However, in principle, I believe you are correct with some stock which
indeed has driving motor cars.

Are the driving motor cars of modern DC EMUs such as Networkers,
Junipers, Electrostars and Desiros independent multiple units in this
way? It seems that no set is ever run without a pantograph trailer car
- is this because the motor cars rely on the electronics or other
systems in this car, even when running from the DC 3rd rail? Or can
the motor cars run seperately from the rest of the set?


Modern stock introduces problems through a concept known as
'distributed systems'. The equipment required for the train to work is
not fitted exclusively on the driving or motor cars, but is
distributed along the length of the train. In this case, by removing
one or more cars from the set, some essential equipment would be
removed too.

In the case of Voyagers, you would expect that any formation of 2 or
more cars would be possible as each car has its own engine - in fact
because of distributed systems and other technical limitations, the
minimum consist of a unit is 4 cars.

I was told by a technician that in the case of Class 444/450 Desiros
that it is a very difficult procedure to separate cars in a set
anyway, because they are semi-permanently coupled and not designed to
be separated.

Hope this is of interest,

Chris.

P.S. This is written from my own, perhaps limited, knowledge and
understanding of the technical aspects. I am not from a railway
technical background, but believe this information to be correct. I am
sure more knowlegeable contributors will confirm or refute what I have
said.
  #3   Report Post  
Old April 20th 04, 08:19 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Feb 2004
Posts: 3
Default Modern DC EMUs


"Chris Rogers" wrote in message
om...
(Dominic) wrote in message

. com...
With an older DC EMU such as a 4-CEP I imagine that the driving motor
car can be uncoupled from the set and run independently under its own
power, and that 2 such cars could form a 2 car train.


This is not always the case with Mk1 EMUs - as I understand it, in
some units (like the 4-CIG IIRC) the driving cars are not the motor
cars - the units have separate driving trailers and a single motor
car. In this case, the 3rd Rail pickup shoes are on the
leading/trailing vehicles and not the motor car itself, so apart from
having no cab, an isolated motor car like this would have no power
supply.

However, in principle, I believe you are correct with some stock which
indeed has driving motor cars.

Are the driving motor cars of modern DC EMUs such as Networkers,
Junipers, Electrostars and Desiros independent multiple units in this
way? It seems that no set is ever run without a pantograph trailer car
- is this because the motor cars rely on the electronics or other
systems in this car, even when running from the DC 3rd rail? Or can
the motor cars run seperately from the rest of the set?


Modern stock introduces problems through a concept known as
'distributed systems'. The equipment required for the train to work is
not fitted exclusively on the driving or motor cars, but is
distributed along the length of the train. In this case, by removing
one or more cars from the set, some essential equipment would be
removed too.

In the case of Voyagers, you would expect that any formation of 2 or
more cars would be possible as each car has its own engine - in fact
because of distributed systems and other technical limitations, the
minimum consist of a unit is 4 cars.

I was told by a technician that in the case of Class 444/450 Desiros
that it is a very difficult procedure to separate cars in a set
anyway, because they are semi-permanently coupled and not designed to
be separated.

Hope this is of interest,

Chris.

P.S. This is written from my own, perhaps limited, knowledge and
understanding of the technical aspects. I am not from a railway
technical background, but believe this information to be correct. I am
sure more knowlegeable contributors will confirm or refute what I have
said.


I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but apparently the two different
manufacturers of class 465 units used different equipment layouts, and one
type of unit can operate without its trailer cars, and the other cannot, and
the two builds of vehicle cannot be mixed in one unit.

I seem to remember reading this in RAIL when the units were fairly new.

Lee


  #5   Report Post  
Old April 20th 04, 10:02 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Nov 2003
Posts: 187
Default Modern DC EMUs

"Chris Rogers" wrote in message
om...

This is not always the case with Mk1 EMUs


Not sure about that - maybe if Rod Hull had had a newer one, he might be
alive today...

;-)

Ian



  #7   Report Post  
Old April 20th 04, 10:55 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jul 2003
Posts: 12
Default Modern DC EMUs

"Jack Taylor" wrote in message
...
Absolutely. The shortest formation for a CEP unit is 2-CEP (both driving
vehicles, which have cabs, pick-up shoes and are motored), whilst the
shortest formation for a CIG or VEP is 3-CIG/3-VEP, for the reasons that

you
give (driving trailers and a centre motored vehicle).


I don't know how it affects specific units, but the other thing nobody has
mentioned is the compressor and air reservoirs. If those aren't on the
driving vehicle, it's going nowhere, even with shoes, motors and a cab.

Roger


  #9   Report Post  
Old April 20th 04, 04:19 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Feb 2004
Posts: 40
Default Modern DC EMUs

(Chris Rogers) wrote in message . com...
(Dominic) wrote in message . com...
With an older DC EMU such as a 4-CEP I imagine that the driving motor
car can be uncoupled from the set and run independently under its own
power, and that 2 such cars could form a 2 car train.


This is not always the case with Mk1 EMUs - as I understand it, in
some units (like the 4-CIG IIRC) the driving cars are not the motor
cars - the units have separate driving trailers and a single motor
car. In this case, the 3rd Rail pickup shoes are on the
leading/trailing vehicles and not the motor car itself, so apart from
having no cab, an isolated motor car like this would have no power
supply.

However, in principle, I believe you are correct with some stock which
indeed has driving motor cars.

You're right - I think these units with a central non-driving motor
car started with the 4-CIGs and includes classes 313, 455 and 319.
Equipment on these units appears to be so distributed that I doubt
they can run with less than 4 cars.

Are the driving motor cars of modern DC EMUs such as Networkers,
Junipers, Electrostars and Desiros independent multiple units in this
way? It seems that no set is ever run without a pantograph trailer car
- is this because the motor cars rely on the electronics or other
systems in this car, even when running from the DC 3rd rail? Or can
the motor cars run seperately from the rest of the set?


Modern stock introduces problems through a concept known as
'distributed systems'. The equipment required for the train to work is
not fitted exclusively on the driving or motor cars, but is
distributed along the length of the train. In this case, by removing
one or more cars from the set, some essential equipment would be
removed too.

In the case of Voyagers, you would expect that any formation of 2 or
more cars would be possible as each car has its own engine - in fact
because of distributed systems and other technical limitations, the
minimum consist of a unit is 4 cars.

That's interesting. I didn't know this inflexibility applied to
Voyagers. I thought distributed systems were less common on DMUs.
Maybe it's because of their 3-phase electric transmission?

I was told by a technician that in the case of Class 444/450 Desiros
that it is a very difficult procedure to separate cars in a set
anyway, because they are semi-permanently coupled and not designed to
be separated.

Hope this is of interest,

Chris.

Thanks a lot. Many units have bar couplers within sets, but the number
of cables and hoses connecting Desiro cars is quite incredible.
  #10   Report Post  
Old April 20th 04, 04:25 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Feb 2004
Posts: 40
Default Modern DC EMUs

"Lee Osborne" wrote in message ...

SNIP

I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but apparently the two different
manufacturers of class 465 units used different equipment layouts, and one
type of unit can operate without its trailer cars, and the other cannot, and
the two builds of vehicle cannot be mixed in one unit.

I seem to remember reading this in RAIL when the units were fairly new.

Lee


That's interesting. I wonder if the GEC Alsthom sets are the ones that
can operate as 2 car units, since GEC Alsthom built the 2 car class
466 units. There's a great history of the Networkers at
http://www.semg.org.uk/gallery/class465_1.html

Dominic


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Delivering a Modern European Railway for 21st Century Ireland" -with Dick Fearn 15th October 19 00 hours burkey[_2_] London Transport 0 October 8th 09 12:23 AM
Modern Railways, June 1506 London Transport 47 June 16th 09 06:58 PM
The modern art fountain thing at St Giles Circus Basil Jet London Transport 6 June 11th 09 10:13 AM
Modern Railways, June [email protected] London Transport 0 June 10th 09 11:35 PM
Modern trains and electronic equipment? elyob London Transport 5 September 11th 06 04:36 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:41 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2021 London Banter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about London Transport"

 

Copyright © 2017