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Old March 26th 19, 09:19 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Passengers on the line at Leiwsham - RAIB report

Roland Perry wrote:
In message

, at 09:07:00 on Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Jeremy Double

remarked:

There's probably around a thousand trains without toilets in and around
London.

I know but it's becoming obvious that this is unsatisfactory.

I’m not sure where you’d put toilets on tube stock without
obstructing the
emergency exit to the next carriage; as you can’t walk through the train,
would you want a toilet in each carriage?


The point is made in the RAIB report that in the event of a train being
unable to move, underground trains behind it are held at stations, so the
problem that arose at Lewisham wouldn’t arise. This seems a very
reasonable approach on a metro-style railway where the trains are not
provided with toilets.


That still leaves the train which is 'broken down' in the tunnel, and I
don't believe the minimum block length on the Underground is fully from
one station to the next, so there could be a train in the tunnel behind
a broken down one.

Actually it's worse than that, because if a train manages to limp to a
station, or breaks down at a station, there's almost inevitably a least
one train at a stand in the tunnel behind it.


Yes, that's probably true on the busier lines with trains every two
minutes.

I think the train behind is then instructed to proceed slowly and couple to
the stalled train ahead.

Alternatively, it can be instructed to reverse to the previous station. If
the platform is already occupied, the reversing train will either couple up
to it, or the other train will also reverse a short distance, so that one
passenger door of the first train can get to the platform.

Obviously, this only happens once they have given up on moving the stalled
train any time soon.


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Old March 26th 19, 04:26 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Passengers on the line at Leiwsham - RAIB report

On Tue 26/03/2019 10:19, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message

, at 09:07:00 on Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Jeremy Double

remarked:

There's probably around a thousand trains without toilets in and around
London.

I know but it's becoming obvious that this is unsatisfactory.

I’m not sure where you’d put toilets on tube stock without
obstructing the
emergency exit to the next carriage; as you can’t walk through the train,
would you want a toilet in each carriage?

The point is made in the RAIB report that in the event of a train being
unable to move, underground trains behind it are held at stations, so the
problem that arose at Lewisham wouldn’t arise. This seems a very
reasonable approach on a metro-style railway where the trains are not
provided with toilets.


There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.
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Old March 26th 19, 10:24 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Passengers on the line at Leiwsham - RAIB report

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 10:19:13 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Roland Perry wrote:
In message

, at 09:07:00 on Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Jeremy Double

remarked:

There's probably around a thousand trains without toilets in and around
London.

I know but it's becoming obvious that this is unsatisfactory.

Im not sure where youd put toilets on tube stock without
obstructing the
emergency exit to the next carriage; as you cant walk through the train,
would you want a toilet in each carriage?

The point is made in the RAIB report that in the event of a train being
unable to move, underground trains behind it are held at stations, so the
problem that arose at Lewisham wouldnt arise. This seems a very
reasonable approach on a metro-style railway where the trains are not
provided with toilets.


That still leaves the train which is 'broken down' in the tunnel, and I
don't believe the minimum block length on the Underground is fully from
one station to the next, so there could be a train in the tunnel behind
a broken down one.

Actually it's worse than that, because if a train manages to limp to a
station, or breaks down at a station, there's almost inevitably a least
one train at a stand in the tunnel behind it.


Yes, that's probably true on the busier lines with trains every two
minutes.

I think the train behind is then instructed to proceed slowly and couple to
the stalled train ahead.

Alternatively, it can be instructed to reverse to the previous station.

Not normally done on LU AFAIAA, mainly because of the need for
something to push the stalled train and the likelihood that by that
time the preceding station will also have a train in the platform. At
some locations there might be a convenient crossover for a train to be
backed out if the stalled train cannot be moved without engineering
intervention. One or two trains in a tunnel between two occupied
platforms is probably a regular event on the Jubilee Line and others
with close signalling and an intensive service; in some places on ATO
lines you can often see a following train less than a length away from
the platform when there is bunching.

If
the platform is already occupied, the reversing train will either couple up
to it, or the other train will also reverse a short distance, so that one
passenger door of the first train can get to the platform.

Obviously, this only happens once they have given up on moving the stalled
train any time soon.

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Old March 27th 19, 06:12 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Passengers on the line at Leiwsham - RAIB report

In message , at 23:24:39 on
Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Charles Ellson remarked:

I think the train behind is then instructed to proceed slowly and couple to
the stalled train ahead.

Alternatively, it can be instructed to reverse to the previous station.

Not normally done on LU AFAIAA


I'd ask Recliner if he's ever seen a report of the activity he describes
taking place.
--
Roland Perry
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Old March 27th 19, 08:14 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Passengers on the line at Leiwsham - RAIB report

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 17:26:06 +0000, MissRiaElaine wrote:
On Tue 26/03/2019 10:19, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message

, at 09:07:00 on Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Jeremy Double
remarked:

There's probably around a thousand trains without toilets in and around
London.

I know but it's becoming obvious that this is unsatisfactory.

I’m not sure where you’d put toilets on tube stock without
obstructing the
emergency exit to the next carriage; as you can’t walk through the train,
would you want a toilet in each carriage?

The point is made in the RAIB report that in the event of a train being
unable to move, underground trains behind it are held at stations, so the
problem that arose at Lewisham wouldn’t arise. This seems a very
reasonable approach on a metro-style railway where the trains are not
provided with toilets.


There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.


There are quite a few. On your journey 8 of the 12 stations travelled
through have toilets. There are fewer toilets on the deep bored sections.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf


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Old March 27th 19, 08:22 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Passengers on the line at Leiwsham - RAIB report

On 27/03/2019 09:14, David Walters wrote:

There are quite a few. On your journey 8 of the 12 stations travelled
through have toilets. There are fewer toilets on the deep bored sections.


Any chance the SuperSewer will improve this situation?
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Old March 27th 19, 09:37 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Passengers on the line at Leiwsham - RAIB report

On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 07:12:33 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 23:24:39 on
Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Charles Ellson remarked:

I think the train behind is then instructed to proceed slowly and couple to
the stalled train ahead.

Alternatively, it can be instructed to reverse to the previous station.

Not normally done on LU AFAIAA


I'd ask Recliner if he's ever seen a report of the activity he describes
taking place.


My old man worked on the Met, rising via yard manager at Neasden and
station master, to becoming an area manager.

He told the story or some bright young manager ordering an 8-car train
of A-stock to couple up behind another 8-car train that had failed.
Making it too long for a short section - the average block length is
about 300 metres so some are shorter, and a 16-car A-stock train would
be 256.

So it would occupy three blocks at a time.

I have no idea how it was sorted out.
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Old March 27th 19, 03:51 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Passengers on the line at Leiwsham - RAIB report

In article ,
MissRiaElaine wrote:
There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.


More than you'd think:

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf

--
Natalie Amery. +---------+ ________________ _________________
##### |Cambridge| |# [] ## ## [] # | | # [] ## ## [] #|
#######__o +-+-----+-+ | [] [] | | [] [] |
#######'/ ----------+-----+--------- \-oo----------oo-/+\-oo----------oo-/
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Old March 27th 19, 05:33 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Passengers on the line at Leiwsham - RAIB report

In message , at 16:51:27 on Wed,
27 Mar 2019, Natalie Amery remarked:

There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.


More than you'd think:

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf


That's not toilets at TfL stations, it's largely toilets somewhere near
TfL stations. The clue being the black lozenge "outside the gateline".

With a side order of "Dagger": not managed by TfL.
--
Roland Perry
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Old March 27th 19, 05:51 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Passengers on the line at Leiwsham - RAIB report

On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 09:22:33 +0000, Someone Somewhere
wrote:

On 27/03/2019 09:14, David Walters wrote:

There are quite a few. On your journey 8 of the 12 stations travelled
through have toilets. There are fewer toilets on the deep bored sections.


Any chance the SuperSewer will improve this situation?

It could produce some spectacular backing up.


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