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Old June 19th 19, 11:04 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 10:57:29 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48668001


well I don't know about the rest,

but I for one think that the idea that people who have little or no
business
at the airport are going to have to suffer 5 years of disruption whilst
they
rebuild the M25 to create this Hub airport entirely unreasonable

Why do you think M25 users will suffer five years of disruption? It's
more
likely to be a few night time closures or lane restrictions.

they are going to put the whole road in a tunnel (presumably from the way
it's described not by building a raft on top of it)

how can that not cause major disruption?


You've obviously not looked at the map,


what is "The Map" - I guess there is one, but no I didn't get to see it (You
can blame that on my out of date browser if the original article included a
link)

or read this thread.


as one of the first to reply, that would have been difficult


If you now read the thread, I pointed out that the buried/bridged
motorway will be built on a new alignment, to the west of the current
M25, so building it won't disrupt the existing motorway or flights.
Only the short period of linking the old carriageways and new
diversion will cause any disruption, and that should be short (mainly
a few days or weeks of lane closures, then a few hours of complete
closure while the traffic is switched to the new route).

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Old June 19th 19, 11:11 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 19/06/2019 12:04, Recliner wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 10:57:29 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48668001


well I don't know about the rest,

but I for one think that the idea that people who have little or no
business
at the airport are going to have to suffer 5 years of disruption whilst
they
rebuild the M25 to create this Hub airport entirely unreasonable

Why do you think M25 users will suffer five years of disruption? It's
more
likely to be a few night time closures or lane restrictions.

they are going to put the whole road in a tunnel (presumably from the way
it's described not by building a raft on top of it)

how can that not cause major disruption?


You've obviously not looked at the map,


what is "The Map" - I guess there is one, but no I didn't get to see it (You
can blame that on my out of date browser if the original article included a
link)

or read this thread.


as one of the first to reply, that would have been difficult


If you now read the thread, I pointed out that the buried/bridged
motorway will be built on a new alignment, to the west of the current
M25, so building it won't disrupt the existing motorway or flights.
Only the short period of linking the old carriageways and new
diversion will cause any disruption, and that should be short (mainly
a few days or weeks of lane closures, then a few hours of complete
closure while the traffic is switched to the new route).


Are you talking about the earlier plan where the existing M4 M25
junction was half-removed and replaced by a weird junction further west?
The picture in the BBC article seems to be describing not that, but a
different plan where the M25 keeps its present horizontal alignment.

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Nine Horses - 2005 - Snow Borne Sorrow
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Old June 19th 19, 11:21 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 07:53:25 on Wed, 19 Jun
2019, Recliner remarked:

They'll build the diverted, sunken, bridged M25 to the west of the
current road, with no disruption to road or air traffic during the
building, which might take a couple of years.

The only disruption will come at the end, when the traffic is diverted to
the new route. My guess is that the northbound traffic will be moved first,
with a few weeks of lane 1 closures required while they connect the new to
the old carriageways, then an overnight closure for the final switch to be
made. The same procedure would then be followed a few months later to
divert the southbound carriageway to the new alignment.


The amount of work you would be expecting them to do "overnight" beggars
belief.
--
Roland Perry
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Old June 19th 19, 11:24 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 12:04:50 on
Wed, 19 Jun 2019, Recliner remarked:

I pointed out that the buried/bridged
motorway will be built on a new alignment, to the west of the current
M25, so building it won't disrupt the existing motorway or flights.
Only the short period of linking the old carriageways and new
diversion will cause any disruption, and that should be short (mainly
a few days or weeks of lane closures, then a few hours of complete
closure while the traffic is switched to the new route).


It's far too close to the intersection with the M4 for the geometry to
work. Not only that, Heathrow's own information shows the M25 route
undiverted (only local roads have new corridors):

https://aec.heathrowconsultation.com...tes/5/2019/06/
P1-11-Local-Roads-Diverted.jpg
--
Roland Perry
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Old June 19th 19, 11:29 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 15:12:57 on Tue, 18 Jun
2019, Recliner remarked:
But, given Stansted's spare capacity, I don't think it will be even
requesting a second runway any time soon.

Apart from this (admittedly old) one?

http://stopstanstedexpansion.com/maps.html

That proposal was abandoned years ago by the previous owner. The current
owner shows no interest in investing in a new runway.


Sure, but there's a plan on the back burner. It takes decades for these
things to mature.


So are you agreeing or disagreeing with what I said ("I don't think it will
be even requesting a second runway any time soon")?


Depends what you mean by "soon". Apparently 2050 is the kind of
timescale these airports are planned around, plus however long the 3rd
runway has already been in the pipeline.

Should the current LHR plan "hit the buffers", Stansted have a
mothballed plan they might well decide to dust off.
--
Roland Perry


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Old June 19th 19, 11:31 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 12:11:23 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 19/06/2019 12:04, Recliner wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 10:57:29 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48668001


well I don't know about the rest,

but I for one think that the idea that people who have little or no
business
at the airport are going to have to suffer 5 years of disruption whilst
they
rebuild the M25 to create this Hub airport entirely unreasonable

Why do you think M25 users will suffer five years of disruption? It's
more
likely to be a few night time closures or lane restrictions.

they are going to put the whole road in a tunnel (presumably from the way
it's described not by building a raft on top of it)

how can that not cause major disruption?


You've obviously not looked at the map,

what is "The Map" - I guess there is one, but no I didn't get to see it (You
can blame that on my out of date browser if the original article included a
link)

or read this thread.

as one of the first to reply, that would have been difficult


If you now read the thread, I pointed out that the buried/bridged
motorway will be built on a new alignment, to the west of the current
M25, so building it won't disrupt the existing motorway or flights.
Only the short period of linking the old carriageways and new
diversion will cause any disruption, and that should be short (mainly
a few days or weeks of lane closures, then a few hours of complete
closure while the traffic is switched to the new route).


Are you talking about the earlier plan where the existing M4 M25
junction was half-removed and replaced by a weird junction further west?
The picture in the BBC article seems to be describing not that, but a
different plan where the M25 keeps its present horizontal alignment.


It's being moved slightly to the west, but not enough to change the M4
junction. You can see the curve to the new diverted alignment in one
of the images in these articles:

"Images released by the airport indicate that the M25, which widens to
12 lanes past Heathrow, would be rebuilt in a tunnel west of its
present route.

Two openings in the tunnel between the taxiways and runway would
improve stability, ventilation and visibility on the road."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/heathrow-plans-runway-over-m25-in-30-year-expansion-f58v9f2ts?shareToken=3416809e5a92ad594cefa79d3391e 8a7

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9319310/heathrow-airport-expansion-revealed-third-runway-finished-2026/
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Old June 19th 19, 11:39 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 19/06/2019 12:21, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 07:53:25 on Wed, 19 Jun
2019, Recliner remarked:

They'll build the diverted, sunken, bridged M25 to the west of the
current road, with no disruption to road or air traffic during the
building, which might take a couple of years.

The only disruption will come at the end, when the traffic is diverted to
the new route. My guess is that the northbound traffic will be moved
first,
with a few weeks of lane 1 closures required while they connect the
new to
the old carriageways, then an overnight closure for the final switch
to be
made. The same procedure would then be followed a few months later to
divert the southbound carriageway to the new alignment.


The amount of work you would be expecting them to do "overnight" beggars
belief.


I disagree, I don't think even an overnight closure is required. You
reduce it to one lane overnight while you repaint most of the
carriageway to have four (five?) lanes curving onto the altered
alignment. You stop the traffic for a minute while you "change the
points" and route the one traffic lane into a different coned alignment
over the already painted area. You then remove the earlier cone route
and finish painting the carriageway. Then put concrete barriers guarding
the abandoned route and remove all the cones. It's quite common for the
M25 to be down to one lane at night, and far preferable to shutting it.

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Nine Horses - 2005 - Snow Borne Sorrow
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Old June 19th 19, 11:43 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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In article , Roland Perry
writes
The only disruption will come at the end, when the traffic is diverted to
the new route. My guess is that the northbound traffic will be moved first,
with a few weeks of lane 1 closures required while they connect the new to
the old carriageways, then an overnight closure for the final switch to be
made. The same procedure would then be followed a few months later to
divert the southbound carriageway to the new alignment.


The amount of work you would be expecting them to do "overnight" beggars
belief.


I disagree.

Build the two new carriageways. At each end, cut them off very close to
the edge of northbound lane 1 (there's no hard shoulder, right? if there
is, adjust description accordingly).

Cone off northbound lane 1. Spend a week or two filling in the narrow
gap between the old and new northbounds at each end.

Not sure that you even need a closure to switch over. Simply move all
the cones.

Repeat for the southbound (though this time you're closing lane 4).

--
Clive D.W. Feather
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Old June 19th 19, 12:08 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 12:43:48 +0100, "Clive D.W. Feather"
wrote:

In article , Roland Perry
writes
The only disruption will come at the end, when the traffic is diverted to
the new route. My guess is that the northbound traffic will be moved first,
with a few weeks of lane 1 closures required while they connect the new to
the old carriageways, then an overnight closure for the final switch to be
made. The same procedure would then be followed a few months later to
divert the southbound carriageway to the new alignment.


The amount of work you would be expecting them to do "overnight" beggars
belief.


I disagree.

Build the two new carriageways. At each end, cut them off very close to
the edge of northbound lane 1 (there's no hard shoulder, right? if there
is, adjust description accordingly).

Cone off northbound lane 1. Spend a week or two filling in the narrow
gap between the old and new northbounds at each end.

Not sure that you even need a closure to switch over. Simply move all
the cones.

Repeat for the southbound (though this time you're closing lane 4).



Yes, that's what I'm expecting.
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Old June 19th 19, 12:34 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 12:24:15 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 12:04:50 on
Wed, 19 Jun 2019, Recliner remarked:

I pointed out that the buried/bridged
motorway will be built on a new alignment, to the west of the current
M25, so building it won't disrupt the existing motorway or flights.
Only the short period of linking the old carriageways and new
diversion will cause any disruption, and that should be short (mainly
a few days or weeks of lane closures, then a few hours of complete
closure while the traffic is switched to the new route).


It's far too close to the intersection with the M4 for the geometry to
work. Not only that, Heathrow's own information shows the M25 route
undiverted (only local roads have new corridors):

https://aec.heathrowconsultation.com...tes/5/2019/06/
P1-11-Local-Roads-Diverted.jpg


Thanks for that. That map clearly confirms the M25 diversion to the
west: it has a more pronounced curve under the runways than the
current route. It's a small enough diversion not to need any changes
to the M4 junction.

I've overlaid a translucent Google Map view on top of the new map, and
you can clearly see the diversion.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/48091808766/in/dateposted-friend/lightbox/


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