In message , at 16:49:32 on Wed, 17 Jul
2019, Tweed remarked:

Just for anecdata, my iPhone on Vodafone connects without user intervention
to the Underground WiFi. You don’t need to be a VM customer to use it.

That kind of reciprocal arrangement comes and goes, almost too fast to
keep up. But yes, at the moment some Vodafone plans include the Virgin
Wifi on the tube.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 07:42:38 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:29:56 on Sun, 14 Jul
2019, Clank remarked:
Roland Perry Wrote in message:
That's where the albeit fairly rare dual-SIM phone has a role.

Only, for some reason, rare in the UK.

The reason is obvious: so many phones are either SIM-locked to one
provider, or are fitted with SIMs on non-rollover tariffs, that the
opportunities for fitting a second true-Pay-as-you-go SIM are quite
limited.

Of course back when 2G phones first came out the SIM was on a card you could
switch cards easily in seconds but presumably that was deemed too convenient
for users whereupon inserting the SIM was changed to require removing the
battery and messing about trying to get some sum postage sized thing into a
tiny slot at an awkward angle. And now with ever shrinking SIM sizes they're
almost impossible to change without tweezers.

Yes, some of those brands are a bit long in the tooth, but I've managed
to acquire non-contract SIMs for all of them (although the Orange one
expired recently, probably because I'd not used it enough).

Since when has buying PAYG SIMs for most networks ever been a problem? You talk
as if they're a rarity.

In message , at 08:39:30 on Sun, 14 Jul
2019, remarked:
On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 07:42:38 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:29:56 on Sun, 14 Jul
2019, Clank remarked:
Roland Perry Wrote in message:
That's where the albeit fairly rare dual-SIM phone has a role.

Only, for some reason, rare in the UK.

The reason is obvious: so many phones are either SIM-locked to one
provider, or are fitted with SIMs on non-rollover tariffs, that the
opportunities for fitting a second true-Pay-as-you-go SIM are quite
limited.

Of course back when 2G phones first came out the SIM was on a card you could
switch cards easily in seconds but presumably that was deemed too convenient

I'm not sure how many phones ever took the full size SIM.

Commercial considerations killed them off: the idea was that a person
would have a SIM, and be able to share/borrow a phone to use it in.

But the networks wanted to tie people into having their own phone (and
contract) in particular not wanting a phone they'd subsidised being used
with a SIM from a rival network, or even by using up the scraps on a SIM
from their own network.

Hence the extra inconvenience of having to make a phone with such a
large slot in it was actually running counter to their commercial
interests.

for users whereupon inserting the SIM was changed to require removing the
battery and messing about trying to get some sum postage sized thing into a
tiny slot at an awkward angle.

That's more to do with shrinking phone sizes. It doesn't have to be that
bad if there's room for a so-called standard mini-SIM (rather than micro
or nano), especially if the phone has a clip-on battery.

And now with ever shrinking SIM sizes they're
almost impossible to change without tweezers.

Yes, some of those brands are a bit long in the tooth, but I've managed
to acquire non-contract SIMs for all of them (although the Orange one
expired recently, probably because I'd not used it enough).

Since when has buying PAYG SIMs for most networks ever been a problem? You talk
as if they're a rarity.

Ones where the credit rolls over and you don't have to make a regular
calls to keep them alive, aren't quite as common as you claim. The
networks hate them because they tend to get used in "glovebox" phones
were they have all the costs of maintaining the number and the billing
records, for virtually no revenue.

Then there's a few phones which need a "5v" SIM, and don't work with a
3v one. Those SIMs are getting harder to find (some say that it's only
Pound-shop Orange SIMs these days, although I have a very old T-Mobile
SIM which is compliant).
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 08:39:30 on Sun, 14 Jul 2019,
remarked:
On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 07:42:38 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:29:56 on Sun, 14 Jul
2019, Clank remarked:
Roland Perry Wrote in message:
That's where the albeit fairly rare dual-SIM phone has a role.

Only, for some reason, rare in the UK.

The reason is obvious: so many phones are either SIM-locked to one
provider, or are fitted with SIMs on non-rollover tariffs, that the
opportunities for fitting a second true-Pay-as-you-go SIM are quite
limited.

Of course back when 2G phones first came out the SIM was on a card you
could
switch cards easily in seconds but presumably that was deemed too
convenient

I'm not sure how many phones ever took the full size SIM.

Commercial considerations killed them off: the idea was that a person
would have a SIM, and be able to share/borrow a phone to use it in.

But the networks wanted to tie people into having their own phone (and
contract) in particular not wanting a phone they'd subsidised being used
with a SIM from a rival network,

They solved that problem by having phones "network" locked

My "acquired" smart phone still is

tim

In message , at 11:09:30 on Sun, 14 Jul
2019, tim... remarked:

I'm not sure how many phones ever took the full size SIM.

Commercial considerations killed them off: the idea was that a person
would have a SIM, and be able to share/borrow a phone to use it in.

But the networks wanted to tie people into having their own phone
(and contract) in particular not wanting a phone they'd subsidised
being used with a SIM from a rival network,

They solved that problem by having phones "network" locked

My "acquired" smart phone still is

Is still what. Locked? That's hardly unusual.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 11:09:30 on Sun, 14 Jul 2019,
tim... remarked:

I'm not sure how many phones ever took the full size SIM.

Commercial considerations killed them off: the idea was that a person
would have a SIM, and be able to share/borrow a phone to use it in.

But the networks wanted to tie people into having their own phone (and
contract) in particular not wanting a phone they'd subsidised being used
with a SIM from a rival network,

They solved that problem by having phones "network" locked

My "acquired" smart phone still is

Is still what. Locked? That's hardly unusual.

I know

but you seemed not to understand it as the solution to people "sharing"
phones by swapping SIMs in/out


--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

Then there's a few phones which need a "5v" SIM, and don't work with a 3v
one. Those SIMs are getting harder to find (some say that it's only
Pound-shop Orange SIMs these days,

Thinks

why would someone pay even as much as a pound for a SIM?


tim

In message , at 11:11:38 on Sun, 14 Jul
2019, tim... remarked:

Then there's a few phones which need a "5v" SIM, and don't work with
a 3v one. Those SIMs are getting harder to find (some say that it's
only Pound-shop Orange SIMs these days,

Thinks

why would someone pay even as much as a pound for a SIM?

Because that's what the shops charge, and stealing them is a crime.

I've paid as little as 1P for a SIM in Tesco, and both I and the
checkout assistant were surprised (the shelf was marked 99p)

But they've been trained to believe what the till tells them.

That came with some free data for the first month, so not merely a bit
of plastic needing topping up.

Sainsbury's Mobile used to have some offers (their project flopped and
they did desperate stuff to try to kick start it). One of which was to
give people who bought a phone there, a voucher for a £10 top-up. But
the till regarded a £10 SIM [with one month's credit pre-installed] as a
'phone', so they were effectively free.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 11:11:38 on Sun, 14 Jul 2019,
tim... remarked:

Then there's a few phones which need a "5v" SIM, and don't work with a
3v one. Those SIMs are getting harder to find (some say that it's only
Pound-shop Orange SIMs these days,

Thinks

why would someone pay even as much as a pound for a SIM?

Because that's what the shops charge,

Is it. Higher than I have seen, 50p earlier this week (forget where)

and stealing them is a crime.

Yes, very funny


I've paid as little as 1P for a SIM in Tesco, and both I and the checkout
assistant were surprised (the shelf was marked 99p)

My last one was sent to me for free

But they've been trained to believe what the till tells them.

That came with some free data for the first month, so not merely a bit of
plastic needing topping up.

I think my free one came with some credit. AIH that was worthless to me as
I only need it to convert a full sized SIM into a nano SIM.

Sainsbury's Mobile used to have some offers (their project flopped and
they did desperate stuff to try to kick start it).

They didn't do anything differently to others trying to enter the market

their problem was they came to the market too late

tim

On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 10:21:44 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:39:30 on Sun, 14 Jul
2019, remarked:
Of course back when 2G phones first came out the SIM was on a card you could
switch cards easily in seconds but presumably that was deemed too convenient

I'm not sure how many phones ever took the full size SIM.

Probably all of the early 90s ones because the original 2G SIMs were only
available as a full sized card, there was no facility to pop the chip out into
a smaller form factor without using scissors.

for users whereupon inserting the SIM was changed to require removing the
battery and messing about trying to get some sum postage sized thing into a
tiny slot at an awkward angle.

That's more to do with shrinking phone sizes. It doesn't have to be that

Probably. Shame things have gone in the opposite direction since 2007.

Since when has buying PAYG SIMs for most networks ever been a problem? You
talk
as if they're a rarity.

Ones where the credit rolls over and you don't have to make a regular
calls to keep them alive, aren't quite as common as you claim. The
networks hate them because they tend to get used in "glovebox" phones
were they have all the costs of maintaining the number and the billing
records, for virtually no revenue.

Oh come on, its costs them precisely £0.00 to maintain a number, its simply
data in a database.

Then there's a few phones which need a "5v" SIM, and don't work with a
3v one. Those SIMs are getting harder to find (some say that it's only
Pound-shop Orange SIMs these days, although I have a very old T-Mobile
SIM which is compliant).

Never realised there were 2 types of chips. Presumably the 5V are the early
types of SIM?