tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-secretary-grant-shapps-on-why-he-bought-a-tesla-model-3-0tnhhks7j?shareToken=a70221daed84a5f553e362f97fc7a 5a7

so the reasons seem to be:

because he got government grant of 3,500 - for a near 50 grand car (after
options) is that really a deal maker?

It seems to be the biggest factor with BEVs and PHEVs: withdraw the
subsidy, and sales plummet. That's been demonstrated in both the UK and
many other countries. And when you consider that, even with the subsidy,
most BEVs are also loss-making for the manufacturer, it's clear that the
gap between what most people are willing to pay and what it costs to make
them is still large (though shrinking).


So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?


not very compelling, is it?

It presumably is for a virtue-signalling politician.


especially as he admits himself that there are not enough public charge
points - there's not a single one within parking distance of my house

Same here.

In message , at 08:22:19 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:22:19 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.

In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.

I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge, and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have to
get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in central
London.


I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.

I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

I don't think the GLA has any authority beyond the London boroughs.

In message , at 10:28:14 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now.

I didn't mention banned. The context of the newspaper article was the
daily cost.

It's probably only a matter of time before only ZEVs get into central
London without some sort of charge, and the dirtiest vehicles will be
banned altogether.

Yes, to the "charge", but maybe not in the life of the secondhand car
the Minister could have bought to get into the zone free of charge
today.

But TfL will first have to get its own house in order, using only
zero-emissions buses in central London.

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.

I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

I don't think the GLA has any authority beyond the London boroughs.

Sometimes people use "M25" as a proxy for "GLA area", even though they
don't co-ibcide.

When this group was set up there was a *lot* of discussion of what
"London" meant for the purposes of the charter!
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:28:14 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now.

I didn't mention banned. The context of the newspaper article was the
daily cost.

It's probably only a matter of time before only ZEVs get into central
London without some sort of charge, and the dirtiest vehicles will be
banned altogether.

Yes, to the "charge", but maybe not in the life of the secondhand car
the Minister could have bought to get into the zone free of charge
today.

True, but he was virtue-signalling. I also wonder how many other
conventional cars his family runs?


But TfL will first have to get its own house in order, using only
zero-emissions buses in central London.

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?

London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

When this group was set up there was a *lot* of discussion of what
"London" meant for the purposes of the charter!

surely it's the area where busses operated by what (I presume) was called
London Transport at the time, go to

even when they go outside the M25 (such as 81 to Slough)

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge, and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have
to
get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in central
London.

Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then

That'll work well as a tabloid headline


tim

tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge, and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have
to get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in central
London.

Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then

That'll work well as a tabloid headline

Have you only just noticed?

The original Congestion Charge (â„¢ Red Ken) was a bonus for plutocrats,
clearing the streets of most of the pesky scruffy, cheap cars driven by
poorer commuters. And Sadiq's ULEZ is another bonus for people with nice
modern cars, clearing the streets of the smoky diesels and old petrol
wrecks. So, yes, Labour mayors go out of the way to banish cheaper, older
cars from London's congested streets, leaving them clear for well-heeled
commuters in shiny new cars.