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Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 20:50:33 +0000 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 20:05:39 on Wed, 6 Nov 2019, remarked: On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:38:02 +0000 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 22:16:22 on Sun, 3 Nov 2019, Recliner remarked: It's not just tourists and Heathrow workers who have to get to the airport: plenty of British travellers and savvy foreign travellers use the airport too. Any of them who have been HEx users will switch to Crossrail when it's fully open, and not just because it's cheaper. That won't leave enough premium payers on HEx to keep it viable. It'll leave all the first-time visitors, which will probably be the Why would it? I'm sure most of them can read a metro map and will immediately spot the lines that go to central london and won't much care for the one that goes to a bears home. For the reasons I've explained why airport express services are more attractive than the local commuter services. I think you're underestimating them. Its not the 1990s anymore where tourists rock up in a new place scratching their heads and clutching a Lonely Planet book not quite sure what to do. I imagine most of them will have done their homework online including the best way to get from the airport to their hotel and if that involves a train no doubt Crossrail will feature. Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is. Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares all over the world
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote: It's vital to your thesis because HEx is catering for the high-end airline passenger who has probably never visited London before, and just wants to be spoon-fed an "airport express" service to the city centre. If you say so, but it's hard to believe their business model assumed that each passenger will make one trip in his lifetime. I cheerfully agree that if your destination is near Paddington, HeX is quite handy, particularly if you or your travel planner are able to think a few days ahead and book a Ł15 fixed date return HeX ticket. Here in the US, the normal thing at an airport is to rent a car, not to take a taxi. I think that's a huge stretch for the kind of travellers involved. For example the first time I flew into Atlanta from the UK for a trade show in the city centre, a hire car would be a huge liability. As would one have been to a similar trade show six months later in New York. If you're just going to downtown Atlanta or anywhere in NYC you're right, a car is a bad idea. But they are not typical of US cities or airports. I have visted a friend who lives on the Emory campus at the north edge of Atlanta. You can get there on MARTA and a bus, but it's quite slow. A taxi is quite expensive since it takes hour with traffic, and you'll typically want a car at your destination anyway since restaurants and such are rarely within walking distance. -- Regards, John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly |
Heathrow Express slashes fares all over the world
On 08/11/2019 20:23, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:37:03 on Fri, 8 Nov 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked: On 08/11/2019 06:30, John Levine wrote: Here in the US, the normal thing at an airport is to rent a car, not to take a taxi. I've never done that when arriving from the UK. I'm usually too jet-lagged to even think about driving. I mostly stay with friends, so either they pick me up or I get a taxi. If I need a car, I'll get it the next day. I have picked up cars at airports on internal flights, though. UK internal, or USA internal? USA internal. San Francisco to San Diego usually. Although I did get a car one time when I flew from Aberdeen to Birmingham to visit the mother (a dirty job, but it has to be done..!) Back in the day, I did once have a long weekend in Glasgow which involved a flight from London and a rental car. But that was when I had a very well paid job where being on any kind of holiday was hugely disapproved of. So one had to flit around within strict limits, that would not have allowed any other means of transport (other than perhaps a private helicopter). That would be nice, I could mess around in a Bell 206 JetRanger all day..! -- Ria in Aberdeen [Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct] |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
On 07/11/2019 21:39, Recliner wrote:
Not just central London: Ealing Broadway may be more convenient for people heading to west London, and people going to the City or Canary Wharf would be crazy to take HEx rather than Crossrail. We usually stay close to the Ace Cafe (good grub there) so that's what we intend to do from now on. Piccadilly to Acton Town, District to Ealing Broadway, then the 112 bus round to Wembley instead of going right into Zone 1. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
In article ,
Recliner wrote: Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is. Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed. Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail, wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground capacity? -- Regards, John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
In article ,
Clive D.W. Feather wrote: In article , Roland Perry writes As a result, and even as a more adventurous traveller (colleagues were amazed I dared get a bus from Geneva to the airport, and didn't even consider rail) I think I've only once got a train on first arrival at a suitably equipped overseas airport. Working backwards through my travel log. This is all consistent with my experience. San Francisco: always been going somewhere that needs a car, though I have used the San Jose trams (and once acted as conductor on one). Never took BART into the city? Works great. Montreal: from memory, express bus to the city (Dorval train wasn't workable) but metro in the city. I was in Montreal yesterday. The express 747 bus runs between the airport and downtown. There is a shuttle from the Dorval station to the airport but only for Via Rail intercity passengers, not Exo local passengers, snd you need to call the shuttle from your mobile to tell it to pick you up at the airport. For arcane reasons of language politics, the metro goes nowhere near the airport. DFW: rented a car because it's nowhere near D or FW with no public transport I can find. There's now a tram that runs into Dallas, fine if you're going where it goes. Otherwise you need a car. -- Regards, John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
John Levine wrote:
In article , Recliner wrote: Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is. Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed. Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail, wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground capacity? I think both are cheap enough that pax will choose between them based on convenience, not price. It really depends on whether the Piccadilly or Crossrail routes suit you better. Oddly enough, the only interchange stations between the Piccadilly and Crossrail are at Heathrow, so they serve a different set of central London stations. The Piccadilly then goes on to serve north London, and Crossrail, the City and east London. So, if you're heading for Padd, Farringdon or Liverpool St, choose Crossrail; for Kings Cross St Pancras, the Piccadilly. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
On 08/11/2019 20:43, Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
In article , Roland Perry writes As a result, and even as a more adventurous traveller (colleagues were amazed I dared get a bus from Geneva to the airport, and didn't even consider rail) I think I've only once got a train on first arrival at a suitably equipped overseas airport. Working backwards through my travel log. Vienna: caught the CAT train then the U-bahn to the hotel. No problem. Possibly CAT is overpriced but it went to the right place and I could buy a ticket right in the terminal. You can buy a ticket for the S-Bahn at the terminal too. As we'd just missed a CAT train we actually got to Mitte earlier than if we'd paid the extra. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 02:18:00 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: John Levine wrote: In article , Recliner wrote: Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is. Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed. Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail, wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground capacity? I think both are cheap enough that pax will choose between them based on convenience, not price. It really depends on whether the Piccadilly or Crossrail routes suit you better. Oddly enough, the only interchange stations between the Piccadilly and Crossrail are at Heathrow, so they serve a different set of central London stations. The Piccadilly then goes on to serve north London, and Crossrail, the City and east London. So, if you're heading for Padd, Farringdon or Liverpool St, choose Crossrail; for Kings Cross St Pancras, the Piccadilly. Even if you're going somewhere in north london on the piccadilly line it would probably still be considerably quicker to take crossrail and change in central london twice. As for KX - Farringdon then 1 stop on the met or thameslink, finsbury park - farringdon then 2 stops on thameslink (if they can be bothered to run their trains on time just for once). |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
In message , at 00:01:49 on Sat, 9 Nov
2019, Sammi Gray-Jones remarked: On 07/11/2019 21:39, Recliner wrote: Not just central London: Ealing Broadway may be more convenient for people heading to west London, and people going to the City or Canary Wharf would be crazy to take HEx rather than Crossrail. We usually stay close to the Ace Cafe (good grub there) so that's what we intend to do from now on. Piccadilly to Acton Town, District to Ealing Broadway, then the 112 bus round to Wembley instead of going right into Zone 1. As a regular visitor, you just ruled yourself out of HEx's target market. Will you be using Crossrail, rather than the tube, in future? -- Roland Perry |
Heathrow Express slashes fares all over the world
In message , at 23:52:58 on Fri, 8 Nov
2019, MissRiaElaine remarked: On 08/11/2019 20:23, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 14:37:03 on Fri, 8 Nov 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked: On 08/11/2019 06:30, John Levine wrote: Here in the US, the normal thing at an airport is to rent a car, not to take a taxi. I've never done that when arriving from the UK. I'm usually too jet-lagged to even think about driving. I mostly stay with friends, so either they pick me up or I get a taxi. If I need a car, I'll get it the next day. I have picked up cars at airports on internal flights, though. UK internal, or USA internal? USA internal. San Francisco to San Diego usually. As a regular and seasoned traveller (and also not "destination London"), you've ruled yourself out of the population under discussion. -- Roland Perry |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
In message , at 20:43:18 on Fri, 8 Nov
2019, Clive D.W. Feather remarked: In article , Roland Perry writes As a result, and even as a more adventurous traveller (colleagues were amazed I dared get a bus from Geneva to the airport, and didn't even consider rail) I think I've only once got a train on first arrival at a suitably equipped overseas airport. Working backwards through my travel log. Vienna: caught the CAT train then the U-bahn to the hotel. No problem. Possibly CAT is overpriced but it went to the right place and I could buy a ticket right in the terminal. Seoul: first trip I used the express bus that stopped outside the company hotel rather than two or three (long) metro trips and then a 2 km taxi in a country where I can't even read the signs. Second trip, just used the metro to the (different) hotel; both cheaper and faster than the express bus. Seattle: wasn't going anywhere on the tram, so rented a car (perhaps I should have tried Uber, but I never have so far). In the past I've used the tram. I forget what I did before there were trams. Minneapolis St.Paul: wasn't staying near the metro, such as it is, and wasn't staying close enough to the meeting place to walk, so rented a car. Perth: got picked up by relatives this time. Last time, rented a car because I was going several hundred km. When I returned the car I took bus+metro to my hotel. (I eventually left Perth by train.) Sydney: train. Opal card. Trivial. Cairns: no metro, rented a car. But did catch the train once. Copenhagen: metro or train every time (including to Aalborg, Lund, and Goteborg). Atlanta: MARTA works fine. What's the problem? Singapo metro, of course. Madrid: metro. AYQ: got the dedicated bus service. Melbourne: bus to central area, then tram to hotel. Trams and local trains thereafter (left Melbourne on a coach trip). Hobart: rented a car because going to catch the Ida Bay railway then drive to Launceston. Cagliari: rented a car because was going all over the place. But did ride the entire tram network while I was there. Aalborg: no trams to hotel, so used a taxi. San Francisco: always been going somewhere that needs a car, though I have used the San Jose trams (and once acted as conductor on one). Billund: no public transport and needed to get to Aalborg. Hong Kong: metro and tram. Octopus card. Simples. Amsterdam: train and tram. Montreal: from memory, express bus to the city (Dorval train wasn't workable) but metro in the city. Calgary: rented a car because had to drive half way to Banff. ACE: rented a car because going all over the place. DFW: rented a car because it's nowhere near D or FW with no public transport I can find. Stockholm: train and metro. That's 7 years; I think I'll stop there. An interesting history from a seasoned and adventurous traveller. As such you've ruled yourself out of the target market under discussion. -- Roland Perry |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
wrote:
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 02:18:00 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: John Levine wrote: In article , Recliner wrote: Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is. Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed. Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail, wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground capacity? I think both are cheap enough that pax will choose between them based on convenience, not price. It really depends on whether the Piccadilly or Crossrail routes suit you better. Oddly enough, the only interchange stations between the Piccadilly and Crossrail are at Heathrow, so they serve a different set of central London stations. The Piccadilly then goes on to serve north London, and Crossrail, the City and east London. So, if you're heading for Padd, Farringdon or Liverpool St, choose Crossrail; for Kings Cross St Pancras, the Piccadilly. Even if you're going somewhere in north london on the piccadilly line it would probably still be considerably quicker to take crossrail and change in central london twice. As for KX - Farringdon then 1 stop on the met or thameslink, finsbury park - farringdon then 2 stops on thameslink (if they can be bothered to run their trains on time just for once). Crossrail might be quicker, but the trains will be less frequent than the Piccadilly, and people with luggage don't like changing trains. Overall, the Piccadilly is more convenient, and probably hardly slower end-to-end. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares all over the world
On 09/11/2019 14:05, Roland Perry wrote:
As a regular and seasoned traveller (and also not "destination London"), you've ruled yourself out of the population under discussion. I'm always doing things like that, take no notice..! -- Ria in Aberdeen [Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct] |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
On 09/11/2019 14:02, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 00:01:49 on Sat, 9 Nov 2019, Sammi Gray-Jones remarked: On 07/11/2019 21:39, Recliner wrote: Â*Not just central London: Ealing Broadway may be more convenient for peopleÂ* heading to west London, and people going to the City or Canary Wharf wouldÂ* be crazy to take HEx rather than Crossrail. We usually stay close to the Ace Cafe (good grub there) so that's what we intend to do from now on. Piccadilly to Acton Town, District to Ealing Broadway, then the 112 bus round to Wembley instead of going right into Zone 1. As a regular visitor, you just ruled yourself out of HEx's target market. Will you be using Crossrail, rather than the tube, in future? That depends if Crossrail opens any time soon, the underground may well remain the best option for us to use. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 14:33:29 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 02:18:00 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: John Levine wrote: In article , Recliner wrote: Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is. Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed. Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail, wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground capacity? I think both are cheap enough that pax will choose between them based on convenience, not price. It really depends on whether the Piccadilly or Crossrail routes suit you better. Oddly enough, the only interchange stations between the Piccadilly and Crossrail are at Heathrow, so they serve a different set of central London stations. The Piccadilly then goes on to serve north London, and Crossrail, the City and east London. So, if you're heading for Padd, Farringdon or Liverpool St, choose Crossrail; for Kings Cross St Pancras, the Piccadilly. Even if you're going somewhere in north london on the piccadilly line it would probably still be considerably quicker to take crossrail and change in central london twice. As for KX - Farringdon then 1 stop on the met or thameslink, finsbury park - farringdon then 2 stops on thameslink (if they can be bothered to run their trains on time just for once). Crossrail might be quicker, but the trains will be less frequent than the Piccadilly, and people with luggage don't like changing trains. Overall, the Piccadilly is more convenient, and probably hardly slower end-to-end. Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end. It is utterly hopeless especially in the rush hour - it literally crawls through west london and only once past hammersmith does it reach anything approaching a reasonable speed. And then there'd usually be some pointless delay at Acton. I actually terminated the contract early because I couldn't stand it any longer, almost 2 hours each way door to door on a bad day (which was most of them). While you have a point about luggage, a lot of the time in the rush hour there was often nowhere left for more heathrow bound passengers to put theirs and they ended up sitting on their cases in the middle of the vestibule. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
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Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
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Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
Sammi Gray-Jones wrote:
On 09/11/2019 14:02, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 00:01:49 on Sat, 9 Nov 2019, Sammi Gray-Jones remarked: On 07/11/2019 21:39, Recliner wrote: Â*Not just central London: Ealing Broadway may be more convenient for peopleÂ* heading to west London, and people going to the City or Canary Wharf wouldÂ* be crazy to take HEx rather than Crossrail. We usually stay close to the Ace Cafe (good grub there) so that's what we intend to do from now on. Piccadilly to Acton Town, District to Ealing Broadway, then the 112 bus round to Wembley instead of going right into Zone 1. As a regular visitor, you just ruled yourself out of HEx's target market. Will you be using Crossrail, rather than the tube, in future? That depends if Crossrail opens any time soon, the underground may well remain the best option for us to use. That bit of Crossrail is already open, albeit with a lower frequency than planned for the future. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares all over the world
In message , at 21:30:43 on Fri, 8 Nov 2019,
John Levine remarked: In article , Roland Perry wrote: It's vital to your thesis because HEx is catering for the high-end airline passenger who has probably never visited London before, and just wants to be spoon-fed an "airport express" service to the city centre. If you say so, but it's hard to believe their business model assumed that each passenger will make one trip in his lifetime. Their business model was primarily high-end passengers who would otherwise have taken a taxi door to door. But as it's traditional in this group for people to be in denial about that, it becomes necessary to look at the next layer in the demographic, and look at "why people choose HEx rather than commuter services". And that's because they are novices at travelling in London and the rule of thumb in big cities for the uninitiated is "commuter services are a nightmare, catch the airport express instead". It's also why such people also choose to stay in familiar international chains of hotels, rather than seek out privately-run local alternatives, but I digress. I cheerfully agree that if your destination is near Paddington, HeX is quite handy, For the people in HEx's target market (both of the two above), it's irrelevant where Paddington is, it's simply a railhead with a taxi-rank that's (to use London terminology) 'inside Zone 1'. particularly if you or your travel planner are able to think a few days ahead and book a Ł15 fixed date return HeX ticket. Given the other costs of the trip - flight, hotels, and yes the taxi from Paddington to their ultimate destination - they they think they've done that task by identifying HEx as the quicker/cheaper[even at rack rate] way to get to Zone 1, than a taxi starting from Heathrow. They don't need to airbrush out HEx, and then see what the next more gruesome option is. Here in the US, the normal thing at an airport is to rent a car, not to take a taxi. I think that's a huge stretch for the kind of travellers involved. For example the first time I flew into Atlanta from the UK for a trade show in the city centre, a hire car would be a huge liability. As would one have been to a similar trade show six months later in New York. If you're just going to downtown Atlanta or anywhere in NYC you're right, a car is a bad idea. But they are not typical of US cities or airports. I have visted a friend who lives on the Emory campus at the north edge of Atlanta. You can get there on MARTA and a bus, but it's quite slow. A taxi is quite expensive since it takes hour with traffic, and you'll typically want a car at your destination anyway since restaurants and such are rarely within walking distance. But we are discussing coming to London, not to cities in the USA. -- Roland Perry |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
In message , at 08:35:36 on Fri, 8 Nov 2019,
Recliner remarked: Ealing Broadway (in general not just the station) is rather inhospitable as a railhead. I don't think I'd recommend it for a novice overseas visitor. Why? Lift up to the station, a few steps through the barrier, taxi rank right outside. Far better than the long hike at Paddington from platfrm 6/7 to the taxi rank above and beyond the H&C line platform 16. For someone who spends so much time in first class lounges, you have a high expectation that others will want to "slum it" in an unfamiliar (and rather run-down) London suburb. -- Roland Perry |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
In message , at 22:01:51 on Sat, 9 Nov 2019,
Recliner remarked: Even if you're going somewhere in north london on the piccadilly line it would probably still be considerably quicker to take crossrail and change in central london twice. As for KX - Farringdon then 1 stop on the met or thameslink, finsbury park - farringdon then 2 stops on thameslink (if they can be bothered to run their trains on time just for once). Crossrail might be quicker, but the trains will be less frequent than the Piccadilly, and people with luggage don't like changing trains. Overall, the Piccadilly is more convenient, and probably hardly slower end-to-end. Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end. It is utterly hopeless especially in the rush hour - it literally crawls through west london and only once past hammersmith does it reach anything approaching a reasonable speed. And then there'd usually be some pointless delay at Acton. I actually terminated the contract early because I couldn't stand it any longer, almost 2 hours each way door to door on a bad day (which was most of them). While you have a point about luggage, a lot of the time in the rush hour there was often nowhere left for more heathrow bound passengers to put theirs and they ended up sitting on their cases in the middle of the vestibule. I'm forced to agree about the crowding/standing, having taken the Piccadilly from Kings Cross to Heathrow T4 and back earlier this year. And not even during a rush hour (it was Saturday mid-morning and mid-evening). The attraction, rather than using HEx/Connect, was only having to change trains once, at Kings Cross. Exactly. It's an easy, if protracted, journey. I wouldn't have called the rather long walks (with luggage) at either end "easy", nor the standing on the train with its constant start/stopping. The only attraction was lack of further changes, and once on the train a reasonably accurate prediction of when we'd arrive. As it happens we only just made the 1tph onward from Kings Cross, whereas we were far too early to the airport (but an hour later, assuming no cancellations and it therefore not being two hours later) would have been too tight. -- Roland Perry |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:35:36 on Fri, 8 Nov 2019, Recliner remarked: Ealing Broadway (in general not just the station) is rather inhospitable as a railhead. I don't think I'd recommend it for a novice overseas visitor. Why? Lift up to the station, a few steps through the barrier, taxi rank right outside. Far better than the long hike at Paddington from platfrm 6/7 to the taxi rank above and beyond the H&C line platform 16. For someone who spends so much time in first class lounges, you have a high expectation that others will want to "slum it" in an unfamiliar (and rather run-down) London suburb. Paddington is a much worse area than Ealing, which has some very nice, leafy parts just near the station. It's obvious that you're condemning it while knowing nothing about the station or the area. And why do you assume that Ealing is more unfamiliar than Paddington? Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it was conveniently located. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
wrote:
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 14:33:29 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 02:18:00 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: John Levine wrote: In article , Recliner wrote: Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is. Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed. Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail, wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground capacity? I think both are cheap enough that pax will choose between them based on convenience, not price. It really depends on whether the Piccadilly or Crossrail routes suit you better. Oddly enough, the only interchange stations between the Piccadilly and Crossrail are at Heathrow, so they serve a different set of central London stations. The Piccadilly then goes on to serve north London, and Crossrail, the City and east London. So, if you're heading for Padd, Farringdon or Liverpool St, choose Crossrail; for Kings Cross St Pancras, the Piccadilly. Even if you're going somewhere in north london on the piccadilly line it would probably still be considerably quicker to take crossrail and change in central london twice. As for KX - Farringdon then 1 stop on the met or thameslink, finsbury park - farringdon then 2 stops on thameslink (if they can be bothered to run their trains on time just for once). Crossrail might be quicker, but the trains will be less frequent than the Piccadilly, and people with luggage don't like changing trains. Overall, the Piccadilly is more convenient, and probably hardly slower end-to-end. Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end. We already have the Crossrail journey planner. It estimates 39 minutes from LHR T5 to Farringdon, or 40 from T4 to Farringdon. If you allow 5+ mins for changing to the Underground, and another 5 mins to get to Kings Cross, that's about 50+ minutes. It's about 10 mins longer on the Tube, but with a more frequent service and no change required at Heathrow Central, it might be only 5 mins longer on average. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 11:08:49 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end. We already have the Crossrail journey planner. It estimates 39 minutes from LHR T5 to Farringdon, or 40 from T4 to Farringdon. If you allow 5+ mins for changing to the Underground, and another 5 mins to get to Kings Cross, that's about 50+ minutes. It's about 10 mins longer on the Tube, but with a Only 10 mins longer on the tube if the piccadilly line timetable hasn't gone up the spout yet again. Which probably happens slightly less often than Brexit. Still, rather moot until Crossfail actually starts which always seems to be a year away. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 11:08:49 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end. We already have the Crossrail journey planner. It estimates 39 minutes from LHR T5 to Farringdon, or 40 from T4 to Farringdon. If you allow 5+ mins for changing to the Underground, and another 5 mins to get to Kings Cross, that's about 50+ minutes. It's about 10 mins longer on the Tube, but with a Only 10 mins longer on the tube if the piccadilly line timetable hasn't gone up the spout yet again. Which probably happens slightly less often than Brexit. Still, rather moot until Crossfail actually starts which always seems to be a year away. More, now. The tunnel won't open in 2020, and even if it opens in early 2021 — far from guaranteed — the through services will come later. So, through trains from Heathrow to Farringdon are probably at least two years away. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
In message , at 09:15:34 on Sun, 10 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:35:36 on Fri, 8 Nov 2019, Recliner remarked: Ealing Broadway (in general not just the station) is rather inhospitable as a railhead. I don't think I'd recommend it for a novice overseas visitor. Why? Lift up to the station, a few steps through the barrier, taxi rank right outside. Far better than the long hike at Paddington from platfrm 6/7 to the taxi rank above and beyond the H&C line platform 16. For someone who spends so much time in first class lounges, you have a high expectation that others will want to "slum it" in an unfamiliar (and rather run-down) London suburb. Paddington is a much worse area than Ealing, which has some very nice, leafy parts just near the station. Padding station has many excellent facilities, and you don't need to tangle with the streets outside. It's obvious that you're condemning it while knowing nothing about the station or the area. Strangely, I spent a week on holiday in Ealing Broadway, selected because of the rail service to London. I was hoping for leafy-suburb but got much more of an inner-city experience. And why do you assume that Ealing is more unfamiliar than Paddington? The people I'm talking about are foreigners, just off a plane. Why would they be familiar with Ealing Broadway? What they will be slightly more familiar with is the concept of capital city mainline stations, and what they might expect to find there, compared to a commuter station in the suburbs. Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it was conveniently located. I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people whose destination is Ealing Broadway. -- Roland Perry |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:15:34 on Sun, 10 Nov 2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:35:36 on Fri, 8 Nov 2019, Recliner remarked: Ealing Broadway (in general not just the station) is rather inhospitable as a railhead. I don't think I'd recommend it for a novice overseas visitor. Why? Lift up to the station, a few steps through the barrier, taxi rank right outside. Far better than the long hike at Paddington from platfrm 6/7 to the taxi rank above and beyond the H&C line platform 16. For someone who spends so much time in first class lounges, you have a high expectation that others will want to "slum it" in an unfamiliar (and rather run-down) London suburb. Paddington is a much worse area than Ealing, which has some very nice, leafy parts just near the station. Padding station has many excellent facilities, and you don't need to tangle with the streets outside. It's obvious that you're condemning it while knowing nothing about the station or the area. Strangely, I spent a week on holiday in Ealing Broadway, selected because of the rail service to London. I was hoping for leafy-suburb but got much more of an inner-city experience. And why do you assume that Ealing is more unfamiliar than Paddington? The people I'm talking about are foreigners, just off a plane. Why would they be familiar with Ealing Broadway? What they will be slightly more familiar with is the concept of capital city mainline stations, and what they might expect to find there, compared to a commuter station in the suburbs. Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it was conveniently located. I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people whose destination is Ealing Broadway. You seem to think that the HEx target market consists solely of rich, ignorant, timorous foreigners, travelling to London for the first time, who have done precisely zero research into how to get to the address in London they're aiming for. You also think that very particular market will be large enough to survive after Crossrail. I don't think many agree with you. I certainly don't. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
On 11/11/2019 06:58, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:15:34 on Sun, 10 Nov 2019, Recliner remarked: Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it was conveniently located. I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people whose destination is Ealing Broadway. It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Café and the nearby Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when coming from Heathrow T5. -- Ria in Aberdeen [Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct] |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 11/11/2019 06:58, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 09:15:34 on Sun, 10 Nov 2019, Recliner remarked: Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it was conveniently located. I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people whose destination is Ealing Broadway. It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Café and the nearby Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when coming from Heathrow T5. Roland will assure you that you are not in the HEx target market. And, he's absolutely right: by his definition, almost no-one is. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
In article , John Levine
writes San Francisco: always been going somewhere that needs a car, though I have used the San Jose trams (and once acted as conductor on one). Never took BART into the city? Works great. I've used BART many times in the past. But every time I've flown to SFO since BART reached the airport, I've been going to somewhere like San Jose or Santa Cruz. DFW: rented a car because it's nowhere near D or FW with no public transport I can find. There's now a tram that runs into Dallas, fine if you're going where it goes. Otherwise you need a car. D != FW -- Clive D.W. Feather |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:49:05 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 11:08:49 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end. We already have the Crossrail journey planner. It estimates 39 minutes from LHR T5 to Farringdon, or 40 from T4 to Farringdon. If you allow 5+ mins for changing to the Underground, and another 5 mins to get to Kings Cross, that's about 50+ minutes. It's about 10 mins longer on the Tube, but with a Only 10 mins longer on the tube if the piccadilly line timetable hasn't gone up the spout yet again. Which probably happens slightly less often than Brexit. Still, rather moot until Crossfail actually starts which always seems to be a year away. More, now. The tunnel won't open in 2020, and even if it opens in early 2021 — far from guaranteed — the through services will come later. So, through trains from Heathrow to Farringdon are probably at least two years away. Lets hope if the Bakerloo extension gets financing TfL will hire the same people doing the northern line extension which seems to be on schedule, not the ones doing crossrail. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:49:05 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 11:08:49 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end. We already have the Crossrail journey planner. It estimates 39 minutes from LHR T5 to Farringdon, or 40 from T4 to Farringdon. If you allow 5+ mins for changing to the Underground, and another 5 mins to get to Kings Cross, that's about 50+ minutes. It's about 10 mins longer on the Tube, but with a Only 10 mins longer on the tube if the piccadilly line timetable hasn't gone up the spout yet again. Which probably happens slightly less often than Brexit. Still, rather moot until Crossfail actually starts which always seems to be a year away. More, now. The tunnel won't open in 2020, and even if it opens in early 2021 — far from guaranteed — the through services will come later. So, through trains from Heathrow to Farringdon are probably at least two years away. Lets hope if the Bakerloo extension gets financing TfL will hire the same people doing the northern line extension which seems to be on schedule, not the ones doing crossrail. No, that's also behind schedule, partly to align with the Bank station reopening. It was originally planned to open in 2020, but the currently scheduled opening date is Sep 2021. https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/exclusive-northern-line-extension-to-open-nine-months-late-14-12-2018/ Both the Battersea contractors are also involved in Crossrail. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
In article , Graeme Wall
writes Vienna: caught the CAT train then the U-bahn to the hotel. No problem. Possibly CAT is overpriced but it went to the right place and I could buy a ticket right in the terminal. You can buy a ticket for the S-Bahn at the terminal too. As we'd just missed a CAT train we actually got to Mitte earlier than if we'd paid the extra. Quite possibly. But I couldn't be bothered to search out options. -- Clive D.W. Feather |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
On 11/11/2019 22:21, Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
In article , Graeme Wall writes Vienna: caught the CAT train then the U-bahn to the hotel. No problem. Possibly CAT is overpriced but it went to the right place and I could buy a ticket right in the terminal. You can buy a ticket for the S-Bahn at the terminal too. As we'd just missed a CAT train we actually got to Mitte earlier than if we'd paid the extra. Quite possibly. But I couldn't be bothered to search out options. Machines right next to the counter where you get the CAT tickets. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
In message , at 16:04:13 on Mon, 11 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked: Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it was conveniently located. I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people whose destination is Ealing Broadway. It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Café and the nearby Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when coming from Heathrow T5. Roland will assure you that you are not in the HEx target market. And, he's absolutely right: by his definition, almost no-one is. To an extent that's true. After all, rail only carries 10% [that's a survey result rounded to the nearest percentage, not just wild stab] of the passengers. Then there's the workers, but rail has a tiny 2% share of that with 54% in cars, 25% on the bus and 9% on the tube. Most of the 2% is Connect, I expect. While we see people here bending over backwards to explain why they are "part of the 90%", that doesn't explain why HEx has met its targets, nor why it will fail to do so in future. -- Roland Perry |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
In message , at 09:49:42 on Mon, 11 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 09:15:34 on Sun, 10 Nov 2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:35:36 on Fri, 8 Nov 2019, Recliner remarked: Ealing Broadway (in general not just the station) is rather inhospitable as a railhead. I don't think I'd recommend it for a novice overseas visitor. Why? Lift up to the station, a few steps through the barrier, taxi rank right outside. Far better than the long hike at Paddington from platfrm 6/7 to the taxi rank above and beyond the H&C line platform 16. For someone who spends so much time in first class lounges, you have a high expectation that others will want to "slum it" in an unfamiliar (and rather run-down) London suburb. Paddington is a much worse area than Ealing, which has some very nice, leafy parts just near the station. Padding station has many excellent facilities, and you don't need to tangle with the streets outside. It's obvious that you're condemning it while knowing nothing about the station or the area. Strangely, I spent a week on holiday in Ealing Broadway, selected because of the rail service to London. I was hoping for leafy-suburb but got much more of an inner-city experience. And why do you assume that Ealing is more unfamiliar than Paddington? The people I'm talking about are foreigners, just off a plane. Why would they be familiar with Ealing Broadway? What they will be slightly more familiar with is the concept of capital city mainline stations, and what they might expect to find there, compared to a commuter station in the suburbs. Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it was conveniently located. I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people whose destination is Ealing Broadway. You seem to think that the HEx target market consists solely of rich, ignorant, timorous foreigners, travelling to London for the first time, who have done precisely zero research into how to get to the address in London they're aiming for. You also think that very particular market will be large enough to survive after Crossrail. I don't think many agree with you. Certainly they aren't expected to agree with your exaggerated version of the target market I've described. I certainly don't. You must agree with it more than you claim, or you wouldn't need to distort it in an attempt to play to the gallery. -- Roland Perry |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:04:13 on Mon, 11 Nov 2019, Recliner remarked: Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it was conveniently located. I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people whose destination is Ealing Broadway. It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Café and the nearby Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when coming from Heathrow T5. Roland will assure you that you are not in the HEx target market. And, he's absolutely right: by his definition, almost no-one is. To an extent that's true. After all, rail only carries 10% [that's a survey result rounded to the nearest percentage, not just wild stab] of the passengers. That's the HEx share. The Tube carries about twice as many. Then there's the workers, but rail has a tiny 2% share of that with 54% in cars, 25% on the bus and 9% on the tube. Most of the 2% is Connect, I expect. While we see people here bending over backwards to explain why they are "part of the 90%", that doesn't explain why HEx has met its targets, nor why it will fail to do so in future. Why are you so determined to ignore the attractiveness of Crossrail to many HEx customers: more frequent, goes to many more useful places without changing, leaves from the same platforms, and, yes, much cheaper. That explains why HEx will see a slump in usage 2022. |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
In message , at 16:40:06 on Tue, 12 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:04:13 on Mon, 11 Nov 2019, Recliner remarked: Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it was conveniently located. I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people whose destination is Ealing Broadway. It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Café and the nearby Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when coming from Heathrow T5. Roland will assure you that you are not in the HEx target market. And, he's absolutely right: by his definition, almost no-one is. To an extent that's true. After all, rail only carries 10% [that's a survey result rounded to the nearest percentage, not just wild stab] of the passengers. That's the HEx share. HEx plus Heathrow Connect, although the split is in the region of nine percentage points for HEx, and one for Connect. The latter is not nearly as popular as people here imagine. The Tube carries about twice as many. 18% according to the survey I was quoting. But that's not the point - which is that HEx is *not* the choice of 90(+)%, but is still based on a solid business case. That 9% using HEx have very good reasons for doing so, even if our "from the 90% (or is that 91%)" correspondents here are in denial. Then there's the workers, but rail has a tiny 2% share of that with 54% in cars, 25% on the bus and 9% on the tube. Most of the 2% is Connect, I expect. While we see people here bending over backwards to explain why they are "part of the 90%", that doesn't explain why HEx has met its targets, nor why it will fail to do so in future. Why are you so determined to ignore the attractiveness of Crossrail to many HEx customers: more frequent, goes to many more useful places without changing, leaves from the same platforms, and, yes, much cheaper. That explains why HEx will see a slump in usage 2022. And you are determined to ignore the reasons why people take the "airport express" rather than grappling with what they perceive to be the local commuter services. 33% of passengers use a taxi (or private hire) which is of course the ultimate default when in a strange country. Not all of those will be heading towards Central London, but the main reason for HEx was to limit that percentage as much as possible to reduce road congestion/pollution, by abstracting those passengers who could be attracted by a fast, sexy, "airport express", with chuggers selling tickets. You might dislike the chuggers, but the people who are winning here are other road users and local residents breathing the air[2]. Significant numbers of those choosing HEx would not be seen dead on a local commuter service (or more to the point, might suspect they'd be dead if they were ever seen on it). An enquiry by the London Assembly in 2011 (looking at LHR air pollution and the possibilities of encouraging modal shift) heard evidence that while it was predicted by the DfT that combined rail+tube passenger numbers would increase by a whole one percentage point (woo-hoo!) when Crossrail opens[1], but if Crossrail were to grab HEx paths in order to increase their frequency above 6tph, then rail's modal share would shrink three percentage points as a result of losing the "Express" perception (and delivery) of HEx. In other words, six percentage points would more or less grudgingly catch Crossrail instead of HEx, but three percentage points would revert to taxi. In summary: your gut feel is contradicted by the people who have a proper feel for the demographic and the actual numbers at their fingertips. [1] This obscures an unstated number of passengers switching from tube to Crossrail, but obviously Crossrail's gain is the tube's loss. It's public transport share which they were concentrating on. [2] And in a completely different space, the airport seeking permission to increase the number of flights as long as it can encourage most of the additional passengers to use public transport to the airport. -- Roland Perry |
Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:33:25 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: Lets hope if the Bakerloo extension gets financing TfL will hire the same people doing the northern line extension which seems to be on schedule, not the ones doing crossrail. No, that's also behind schedule, partly to align with the Bank station reopening. It was originally planned to open in 2020, but the currently scheduled opening date is Sep 2021. Oh well. The TV program I watched about it was obviously somewhat optimistic. https://www.newcivilengineer.com/lat...extension-to-o pen-nine-months-late-14-12-2018/ I suppose 634m isn't too bad for a few miles of bored tube tunnel and stations under London considering the jocks managed to blow almost 800m on 9 miles of tram line which is a pretty staggering achievement and is almost crossfail standard. |
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