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Basil Jet wrote:
On 08/04/2021 18:07, Graeme Wall wrote: On 08/04/2021 15:53, wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:56:46 +0100 Basil Jet wrote: On 08/04/2021 13:16, Sam Wilson wrote: Basil Jet wrote: On 08/04/2021 06:24, Recliner wrote: Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between routes. ' Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in corporate livery? I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well as on the indicator blinds. London too... Route 13 springs to mind http://www.showbus.co.uk/photos/jjd417d.JPG That was a special service though. IIRC 13 was the only route left with Routemasters on it. If however you're a bus company with multiple routes and a general fleet of buses, painting specific route numbers on the sides doesn't sound like the smartest idea for obvious reasons. Quite a lot do it though. Here's a Brighton one... And some Edinburgh ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lothian_Buses_bus_720_Volvo_B7TL_Wrightbus_Ec lipse_Gemini_SN55_BLV_Madder_and_White_livery_Rout e_3_Connect_branding.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lothian_Buses_bus_715_Volvo_B7TL_Wrightbus_Ec lipse_Gemini_SN55_BKY_Harlequin_livery_Route_3_Clu b_Class_branding.jpg http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_edin_t/0_edinburgh_transport_buses_2005_bus_670_003100_10 00.htm https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-number-26-lothian-bus-on-princes-street-with-a-frog-advertising-104234367.html https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lothian_Buses_bus_745_Volvo_B7TL_Wrightbus_Ec lipse_Gemini_SN55_BOU_Harlequin_livery_Route_44_Se rvice_with_a_Sparkle_route_branding.jpg Sam -- The entity formerly known as Spit the dummy to reply |
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On 07/04/2021 23:15, Graham Harrison wrote:
When I was tested for colour blindness there was some interesting literature I was provided with which suggested that the spectacles that get prescribed for colour blindness have been shown to help some dyslexics. I don't know, just reporting what was claimed. But one thing a dyslexic child was claimed to have said stuck with me "the letters in the words dance across the page". It made me realise there's an awful lot we don't know about ourselves. A friend of mine had a couple of children who had reading difficulties. She had them tested for Meares-Irlen syndrome and their reading improved with coloured / tinted glasses. |
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On 08/04/2021 13:16, Sam Wilson wrote:
I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well as on the indicator blinds. A different colour outline too, so those in the know could spot their orange 29 coming amongst a herd of pink 22s. I expect the reduction in flexibility made it inefficient, so they were all repainted in maroon. |
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wrote:
On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:07:28 +0100 Graeme Wall wrote: On 08/04/2021 15:53, wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:56:46 +0100 Basil Jet wrote: On 08/04/2021 13:16, Sam Wilson wrote: Basil Jet wrote: On 08/04/2021 06:24, Recliner wrote: Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between routes. ' Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in corporate livery? I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well as on the indicator blinds. London too... Route 13 springs to mind http://www.showbus.co.uk/photos/jjd417d.JPG That was a special service though. IIRC 13 was the only route left with Routemasters on it. If however you're a bus company with multiple routes and a general fleet of buses, painting specific route numbers on the sides doesn't sound like the smartest idea for obvious reasons. Quite a lot do it though. Yes, I find it a bit odd tbh as it must limit vehicle flexibility considerably. It needs a handful of extra unbranded spare vehicles across a fleet, which was obviously considered and costed when the first few companies began to introduce it. It's obviously seen as a worthwhile expenditure for the increased visual recognition of the buses and routes, not just among passengers but among potential passengers, including those who don't realise they're potential passengers yet. In any case, it's not uncommon for different routes to have different fleets in any case, even if they're not branded differently - eg in my area the 'prime' pair of routes (direct to the city centre) have always had newer vehicles than the routes which meander through less salubrious parts of town on their way to the centre. Not to mention different vehicle sizes - in the '90s Crosville Wales around where I lived, had some routes operated by the small minibuses, some by bigger minibuses, some by small full-size buses, some by bigger full-size buses and finally the double decker routes. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
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Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:07:28 +0100 Graeme Wall wrote: On 08/04/2021 15:53, wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:56:46 +0100 Basil Jet wrote: On 08/04/2021 13:16, Sam Wilson wrote: Basil Jet wrote: On 08/04/2021 06:24, Recliner wrote: Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between routes. ' Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in corporate livery? I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well as on the indicator blinds. London too... Route 13 springs to mind http://www.showbus.co.uk/photos/jjd417d.JPG That was a special service though. IIRC 13 was the only route left with Routemasters on it. If however you're a bus company with multiple routes and a general fleet of buses, painting specific route numbers on the sides doesn't sound like the smartest idea for obvious reasons. Quite a lot do it though. Yes, I find it a bit odd tbh as it must limit vehicle flexibility considerably. It needs a handful of extra unbranded spare vehicles across a fleet, which was obviously considered and costed when the first few companies began to introduce it. It's obviously seen as a worthwhile expenditure for the increased visual recognition of the buses and routes, not just among passengers but among potential passengers, including those who don't realise they're potential passengers yet. In any case, it's not uncommon for different routes to have different fleets in any case, even if they're not branded differently - eg in my area the 'prime' pair of routes (direct to the city centre) have always had newer vehicles than the routes which meander through less salubrious parts of town on their way to the centre. As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st century version of what took place when buses replaced Trams or in some cases Trolleybuses and for the operators of the latter another change a decade or two later. GH |
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On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 23:20:42 +0100, Roger Lynn
wrote: On 08/04/2021 13:16, Sam Wilson wrote: I havent noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well as on the indicator blinds. Stagecoach do that a lot (at least in some areas). At weekends it's common to see buses on the wrong routes. Back when it was still all London Transport, did red buses ever appear on green (country) routes or vice versa, where the two systems overlapped? |
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On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:37:02 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: It needs a handful of extra unbranded spare vehicles across a fleet, which was obviously considered and costed when the first few companies began to introduce it. It's obviously seen as a worthwhile expenditure for the increased visual recognition of the buses and routes, not just among passengers but among potential passengers, including those who don't realise they're potential passengers yet. I can't imagine too many people see a bus and think "Ooh, nice branding, I must travel on it sometime!". Though I will grant you if its one of the ones that has the route map down the side there may be some people who didn't realise where it went and may use it in future. |
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On 9 Apr 2021 12:21:24 GMT
Marland wrote: Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: In any case, it's not uncommon for different routes to have different fleets in any case, even if they're not branded differently - eg in my area the 'prime' pair of routes (direct to the city centre) have always had newer vehicles than the routes which meander through less salubrious parts of town on their way to the centre. As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st The flat routes presumably. I can't imagine many electric buses would last long - in the sense of running time - in dales or hills even with regen braking. century version of what took place when buses replaced Trams or in some cases Trolleybuses and for the operators of the latter another change a decade or two later. I wouldn't be surprised if induction charging points end up being spread around the countryside and perhaps some cities for electric buses in the future, because with the best will in the world, battery tech for large vehicles isn't up to the job yet on the longer distance routes. And I can't imagine National Express have done much flicking through electric bus brochures yet. |
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On 9 Apr 2021 12:21:24 GMT Marland wrote: Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: In any case, it's not uncommon for different routes to have different fleets in any case, even if they're not branded differently - eg in my area the 'prime' pair of routes (direct to the city centre) have always had newer vehicles than the routes which meander through less salubrious parts of town on their way to the centre. As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st The flat routes presumably. I can't imagine many electric buses would last long - in the sense of running time - in dales or hills even with regen braking. century version of what took place when buses replaced Trams or in some cases Trolleybuses and for the operators of the latter another change a decade or two later. I wouldn't be surprised if induction charging points end up being spread around the countryside and perhaps some cities for electric buses in the future, because with the best will in the world, battery tech for large vehicles isn't up to the job yet on the longer distance routes. It's claimed to have a 300km range, more than enough to run all day on urban routes. It gets a four hour overnight charge in Willesden bus garage. BYD designed and developed the 10.2m long vehicles to TfL specifications which feature air conditioning, seats for 54 passengers and space for 27 standing passengers. https://www.metroline.co.uk/blog/progress/world’s-first-zero-emission-electric-double-decker And I can't imagine National Express have done much flicking through electric bus brochures yet. No, not yet. They may have hydrogen-powered buses before battery electric ones. |
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On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:51:06 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote: On 09/04/2021 14:41, wrote: On 9 Apr 2021 12:21:24 GMT Marland wrote: Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: In any case, it's not uncommon for different routes to have different fleets in any case, even if they're not branded differently - eg in my area the 'prime' pair of routes (direct to the city centre) have always had newer vehicles than the routes which meander through less salubrious parts of town on their way to the centre. As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st The flat routes presumably. I can't imagine many electric buses would last long - in the sense of running time - in dales or hills even with regen braking. Work fine in Guildford. Guildford isn't exactly big. |
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On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 14:40:42 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if induction charging points end up being spread around the countryside and perhaps some cities for electric buses in the future, because with the best will in the world, battery tech for large vehicles isn't up to the job yet on the longer distance routes. It's claimed to have a 300km range, more than enough to run all day on urban routes. It gets a four hour overnight charge in Willesden bus garage. BYD designed and developed the 10.2m long vehicles to TfL specifications which feature air conditioning, seats for 54 passengers and space for 27 standing passengers. https://www.metroline.co.uk/blog/pro...mission-electr ic-double-decker I suspect those ranges are just as optimistic as electric car ones. You can probably halve it in slow traffic in winter when regen braking is ineffective and the heating is on full blast. Regardless, its pathetic the way the Chinese have just leapfrogged all the european bus manufacturers who appear to have been caught with their pants down. And I can't imagine National Express have done much flicking through electric bus brochures yet. No, not yet. They may have hydrogen-powered buses before battery electric ones. Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise. |
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On 09/04/2021 16:10, wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:51:06 +0100 Graeme Wall wrote: On 09/04/2021 14:41, wrote: On 9 Apr 2021 12:21:24 GMT Marland wrote: Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: In any case, it's not uncommon for different routes to have different fleets in any case, even if they're not branded differently - eg in my area the 'prime' pair of routes (direct to the city centre) have always had newer vehicles than the routes which meander through less salubrious parts of town on their way to the centre. As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st The flat routes presumably. I can't imagine many electric buses would last long - in the sense of running time - in dales or hills even with regen braking. Work fine in Guildford. Guildford isn't exactly big. But it is hilly. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
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wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:51:06 +0100 Graeme Wall wrote: On 09/04/2021 14:41, wrote: On 9 Apr 2021 12:21:24 GMT Marland wrote: Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: In any case, it's not uncommon for different routes to have different fleets in any case, even if they're not branded differently - eg in my area the 'prime' pair of routes (direct to the city centre) have always had newer vehicles than the routes which meander through less salubrious parts of town on their way to the centre. As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st The flat routes presumably. I can't imagine many electric buses would last long - in the sense of running time - in dales or hills even with regen braking. Work fine in Guildford. Guildford isn't exactly big. For places like Guildford ,and there are many such provincial towns and cities of similar size the battery electric powered buses now being introduced are probably the first time they have had the opportunity to have emission free at the point of use public transport. They were and are highly likely to remain too small to build tram ,light rail and trolleybus systems. A handful like Taunton had for a short time Edwardian era trams often on a single route only a couple of miles long, they tended to be early casualties and again using Taunton as an example its short line closed after only 16 years of operation in 1921 when unable to agree on a price for electricity with the corporation power supply found its cars stranded when the supply was turned off, horses towed them back to the depot. Many places like Exeter only ran one generation of tram closing in the 1930’s replacing with the now reasonably developed motor bus. It was only the big places like London ,Leeds, Sheffield ,Glasgow that could afford to stay with electric power and replace the first generation of vehicles . The Guildfords, Salisburys and Chichesters have been using noisy polluting vehicles for a 100 years now, its time they got some clean ones. The effect in such places of battery buses may be more marked than in bigger conurbations. GH |
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On 09/04/2021 21:16, Marland wrote:
wrote: On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:51:06 +0100 Graeme Wall wrote: On 09/04/2021 14:41, wrote: On 9 Apr 2021 12:21:24 GMT Marland wrote: Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: In any case, it's not uncommon for different routes to have different fleets in any case, even if they're not branded differently - eg in my area the 'prime' pair of routes (direct to the city centre) have always had newer vehicles than the routes which meander through less salubrious parts of town on their way to the centre. As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st The flat routes presumably. I can't imagine many electric buses would last long - in the sense of running time - in dales or hills even with regen braking. Work fine in Guildford. Guildford isn't exactly big. For places like Guildford ,and there are many such provincial towns and cities of similar size the battery electric powered buses now being introduced are probably the first time they have had the opportunity to have emission free at the point of use public transport. They were and are highly likely to remain too small to build tram ,light rail and trolleybus systems. A handful like Taunton had for a short time Edwardian era trams often on a single route only a couple of miles long, they tended to be early casualties and again using Taunton as an example its short line closed after only 16 years of operation in 1921 when unable to agree on a price for electricity with the corporation power supply found its cars stranded when the supply was turned off, horses towed them back to the depot. Many places like Exeter only ran one generation of tram closing in the 1930’s replacing with the now reasonably developed motor bus. It was only the big places like London ,Leeds, Sheffield ,Glasgow that could afford to stay with electric power and replace the first generation of vehicles . The Guildfords, Salisburys and Chichesters have been using noisy polluting vehicles for a 100 years now, its time they got some clean ones. The effect in such places of battery buses may be more marked than in bigger conurbations. Unfortunately it's only a fleet of 9 buses in Guildford at the moment, theoretically dedicated to serving the 4 park and rides. However one of the car parks has been doing duty as a drive in Covid testing station for the last year so the electric buses are making guest appearances on the university services. Good for me as they pass the end of my road on their way into town. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
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On Thu, 08 Apr 2021 18:56:33 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:35:31 +0100, "NY" wrote: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... Reading buses go in for different liveries for different routes. Some said that at one time the York Park&Ride buses used have different liveries for the different routes, depending on which P&R car-park they went to/from. But by the time I used them, they were a standard livery - the same as the non-P&R buses (*) - and distinguished only by the LED display with the number and the route name (I think it alternated between the colour-name of the route and the name of the car-park). What is always amusing is if a bus company has temporarily borrowed a few buses from another company: there's something a bit weird getting on a bus in York which has bus-company or place-of-interest adverts for Sheffield or Leeds. I think the furthest afield was one that was from the Exeter area. That's a hell of a long way to transport a bus that you've borrowed ;-) When I lived im Manchester, we had Pacers which were withrawn from Cornwall because the curves were too tigh. These still had Cornish ads and wers till painted chocolate and cream )their only redeeming feature). We also had ex- Glasgoe Class 303 units, still painted in Strathclyde livery, with Glasgow adverts and maps. The company down the road from me which used to supply school-sports ground transport to Harrow never bothered to remove any of the adverts from its buses resulting in several of them bimbling around advertising various things in Crosville-land. |
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On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 08:01:36 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 23:20:42 +0100, Roger Lynn wrote: On 08/04/2021 13:16, Sam Wilson wrote: I havent noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well as on the indicator blinds. Stagecoach do that a lot (at least in some areas). At weekends it's common to see buses on the wrong routes. Back when it was still all London Transport, did red buses ever appear on green (country) routes or vice versa, where the two systems overlapped? They used to turn up if there wasn't one of the right colour available due to accidents, overhauls etc. although RLH low height buses seemed to never get a repaint from green when permanently transferred to the 230 route around Harrow. |
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On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 23:50:21 +0100, Charles Ellson
wrote: On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 08:01:36 -0500, Christopher A. Lee wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 23:20:42 +0100, Roger Lynn wrote: On 08/04/2021 13:16, Sam Wilson wrote: I havent noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well as on the indicator blinds. Stagecoach do that a lot (at least in some areas). At weekends it's common to see buses on the wrong routes. Back when it was still all London Transport, did red buses ever appear on green (country) routes or vice versa, where the two systems overlapped? They used to turn up if there wasn't one of the right colour available due to accidents, overhauls etc. although RLH low height buses seemed to never get a repaint from green when permanently transferred to the 230 route around Harrow. The RLH buses I remember on the 230 were all red. I grew up in Harrow and don't remember seeing any in green. |
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wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:37:02 -0000 (UTC) Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: It needs a handful of extra unbranded spare vehicles across a fleet, which was obviously considered and costed when the first few companies began to introduce it. It's obviously seen as a worthwhile expenditure for the increased visual recognition of the buses and routes, not just among passengers but among potential passengers, including those who don't realise they're potential passengers yet. I can't imagine too many people see a bus and think "Ooh, nice branding, I must travel on it sometime!". Though I will grant you if its one of the ones that has the route map down the side there may be some people who didn't realise where it went and may use it in future. I'm thinking of people who regularly drive a route and see lots of buses, but without paying enough attention to the route/destination displayed on them to realise that they're the same route; who may see the consistency of route branding and suddenly realise that their journey is possible by bus having never considered it before. As a real-world example; despite having a higher than average interest in buses, I didn't realise there was a bus 2 or 3 times an hour between Bristol and Wells, until I started using a garage part way along the route; the "Mendip Explorer" buses are very smart https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/mendip-bus-route-named-one-1624469 and I can imagine someone who drives that route regularly in a car, seeing the consistently branded buses and making a connection; then on a day when their car is unavailable (in for service, or perhaps their partner is using it) and they still want to make the journey, suddenly the bus is in their mind as an option, where without the branding it may not have been. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
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In message , at 08:53:03 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked: It needs a handful of extra unbranded spare vehicles across a fleet, which was obviously considered and costed when the first few companies began to introduce it. It's obviously seen as a worthwhile expenditure for the increased visual recognition of the buses and routes, not just among passengers but among potential passengers, including those who don't realise they're potential passengers yet. I can't imagine too many people see a bus and think "Ooh, nice branding, I must travel on it sometime!". Though I will grant you if its one of the ones that has the route map down the side there may be some people who didn't realise where it went and may use it in future. I'm thinking of people who regularly drive a route and see lots of buses, but without paying enough attention to the route/destination displayed on them to realise that they're the same route; who may see the consistency of route branding and suddenly realise that their journey is possible by bus having never considered it before. Yesterday, many of the Stagecoach Cambridge-Ely buses were a vivid shade of turquoise that I don't remember seeing before, and completely without branding. -- Roland Perry |
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wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 14:40:42 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if induction charging points end up being spread around the countryside and perhaps some cities for electric buses in the future, because with the best will in the world, battery tech for large vehicles isn't up to the job yet on the longer distance routes. It's claimed to have a 300km range, more than enough to run all day on urban routes. It gets a four hour overnight charge in Willesden bus garage. BYD designed and developed the 10.2m long vehicles to TfL specifications which feature air conditioning, seats for 54 passengers and space for 27 standing passengers. https://www.metroline.co.uk/blog/pro...mission-electr ic-double-decker I suspect those ranges are just as optimistic as electric car ones. Unfortunately that's the fault of the officially mandated tests, not the manufacturers. The American official range figures tend to be much more accurate. You can probably halve it in slow traffic Actually IMX that's when EVs are at their most efficient. in winter when regen braking is ineffective and the heating is on full blast. I will admit that during the recent spell of temperatures around 2°C to -2°C, the range of my car was around half the predicted range, but another factor played into that too - my daily commute ~halved to four miles, meaning that the heating was on for the whole journey. On the days I remembered to pre-heat the car, the energy consumption was much better (and of course the windscreen was ready-defrosted!). Previously in such low temperatures I've been driving further, and the impact of the low outside temperature is much less noticeable. Regardless, its pathetic the way the Chinese have just leapfrogged all the european bus manufacturers who appear to have been caught with their pants down. And I can't imagine National Express have done much flicking through electric bus brochures yet. No, not yet. They may have hydrogen-powered buses before battery electric ones. Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise. Surely that depends how the hydrogen is generated? Anna Noyd-Dryver |
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On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: wrote: You can probably halve it in slow traffic Actually IMX that's when EVs are at their most efficient. Most efficient *compared to combustion engines*. But if you drove an EV down a road at a constant 30mph then drove it down the same road stopping and starting every 100 metres or less the latter would waste far more power. Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise. Surely that depends how the hydrogen is generated? Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far less efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every stage + the vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50% for a battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single advantage H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless. |
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On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC) Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: wrote: You can probably halve it in slow traffic Actually IMX that's when EVs are at their most efficient. Most efficient *compared to combustion engines*. But if you drove an EV down a road at a constant 30mph then drove it down the same road stopping and starting every 100 metres or less the latter would waste far more power. Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise. Surely that depends how the hydrogen is generated? Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far less efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every stage + the vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50% for a battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single advantage H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless. That’s a not inconsiderable advantage! Sam -- The entity formerly known as Spit the dummy to reply |
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On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC) Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: wrote: You can probably halve it in slow traffic Actually IMX that's when EVs are at their most efficient. Most efficient *compared to combustion engines*. But if you drove an EV down a road at a constant 30mph then drove it down the same road stopping and starting every 100 metres or less the latter would waste far more power. Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise. Surely that depends how the hydrogen is generated? Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far less efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every stage + the vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50% for a battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single advantage H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless. Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change (possible at some stage, but not imminent). . |
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On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson wrote: wrote: H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless. That’s a not inconsiderable advantage! It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys without much in the way of stopping. The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now the generating capacity simply isn't there and short termist politicians don't seem to be interested in providing it, merely exchanging like for like with coal and gas gen replaced by wind farms so they can polish their green halos. |
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On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC) Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far less efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every stage + the vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50% for a battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single advantage H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless. Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change (possible at some stage, but not imminent). . That matters for long distance lorries and buses for whom suitable batteries would be a ridiculous size, but for cars its not even an issue right now, never mind as technology advances. Yes, they're maybe half a ton heavier than an equivalent ICE car at most, but the vehicle size is the same, if not a bit smaller. |
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Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:44:51 on Thu, 8 Apr 2021, Basil Jet remarked: Anglia have liveried trains for the Bittern line, East Suffolk line etc, but I've only ever seen them on the wrong lines! Odd you should mention that... this morning one of the Fen Line GN trains was liveried "Gatwick Express". Which more different to the plain livery than the straying GA Stansted Express ones (which are at least the correct side of the river). Apparently six GatEx 387s have been loaned to GN as temporary 365 replacements. In the medium term, the GA 379s or the cw2c 387s are the more likely replacements. |
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On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC) Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far less efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every stage + the vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50% for a battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single advantage H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless. Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change (possible at some stage, but not imminent). . That matters for long distance lorries and buses for whom suitable batteries would be a ridiculous size, but for cars its not even an issue right now, never mind as technology advances. Yes, they're maybe half a ton heavier than an equivalent ICE car at most, but the vehicle size is the same, if not a bit smaller. Which is why H2 is mainly being considered for larger, heavier vehicles: trains, trucks, long distance buses, large SUVs, perhaps even short range airliners. It's not needed nor viable for ordinary cars. |
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On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC) Sam Wilson wrote: wrote: H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless. That’s a not inconsiderable advantage! It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys without much in the way of stopping. The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now the generating capacity simply isn't there and short termist politicians don't seem to be interested in providing it, merely exchanging like for like with coal and gas gen replaced by wind farms so they can polish their green halos. That’s true. Maybe they’re thinking ahead to a time when we might have to accept a change in lifestyle rather than trying to find “sustainable” ways to maintain our current ones. Sam -- The entity formerly known as Spit the dummy to reply |
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Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:32:14 on Sat, 10 Apr 2021, remarked: On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC) Sam Wilson wrote: wrote: H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless. That’s a not inconsiderable advantage! It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys without much in the way of stopping. The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now the generating capacity simply isn't there And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the streetlights in any one street. and short termist politicians don't seem to be interested in providing it, merely exchanging like for like with coal and gas gen replaced by wind farms so they can polish their green halos. And even if the street lamp supply is upgraded it doesn’t address the issue of the local thieves/yobbos cutting and nicking the charge cables or sticking chewing gum up the works etc. We’ve enough trouble with catalytic converters going awol as it is. Then you’ll have an entire claims industry supporting folk who have “tripped” over a cable. |
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On 10/04/2021 16:57, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 10/04/2021 16:36, wrote: On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC) Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far less efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every stage + the vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50% for a battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single advantage H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless. Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change (possible at some stage, but not imminent). . That matters for long distance lorries and buses for whom suitable batteries would be a ridiculous size, but for cars its not even an issue right now, never mind as technology advances. Yes, they're maybe half a ton heavier than an equivalent ICE car at most, but the vehicle size is the same, if not a bit smaller. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56678669 [Re yellow lorry image, top] Is the trailer for the batteries? |
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On 10/04/2021 18:16, Certes wrote:
On 10/04/2021 16:57, Graeme Wall wrote: On 10/04/2021 16:36, wrote: On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC) Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far less efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every stage + the vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50% for a battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single advantage H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless. Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change (possible at some stage, but not imminent). . That matters for long distance lorries and buses for whom suitable batteries would be a ridiculous size, but for cars its not even an issue right now, never mind as technology advances. Yes, they're maybe half a ton heavier than an equivalent ICE car at most, but the vehicle size is the same, if not a bit smaller. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56678669 [Re yellow lorry image, top]* Is the trailer for the batteries? That was my thought! -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
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On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 20:08:22 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
wrote: On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 23:50:21 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote: On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 08:01:36 -0500, Christopher A. Lee wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 23:20:42 +0100, Roger Lynn wrote: On 08/04/2021 13:16, Sam Wilson wrote: I havent noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well as on the indicator blinds. Stagecoach do that a lot (at least in some areas). At weekends it's common to see buses on the wrong routes. Back when it was still all London Transport, did red buses ever appear on green (country) routes or vice versa, where the two systems overlapped? They used to turn up if there wasn't one of the right colour available due to accidents, overhauls etc. although RLH low height buses seemed to never get a repaint from green when permanently transferred to the 230 route around Harrow. The RLH buses I remember on the 230 were all red. I grew up in Harrow and don't remember seeing any in green. Not often and mainly in the last few years before it mutated into the H1. There wasn't usually more than one at a time. There are some photographs of RLH27, e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/megaanorak/8590545356 but the trouble with that bus IIRC is that by the time the 230 ceased it had already gone into private ownership and some photographs of it on the 230 are actually of it driving around the route on the first day of the new route taking over. |
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On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC) Sam Wilson wrote: wrote: H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless. That’s a not inconsiderable advantage! It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys without much in the way of stopping. I thought we were talking about buses, particularly long-distance coaches eg National Express. The battery will have to be enough to last a whole day (plus reserve). H2 would definitely have an advantage there. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
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Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:32:14 on Sat, 10 Apr 2021, remarked: On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC) Sam Wilson wrote: wrote: H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless. That’s a not inconsiderable advantage! It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys without much in the way of stopping. The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now the generating capacity simply isn't there And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the streetlights in any one street. Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of the world. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
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On 10/04/2021 20:36, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 15:32:14 on Sat, 10 Apr 2021, remarked: On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC) Sam Wilson wrote: wrote: H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless. That’s a not inconsiderable advantage! It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys without much in the way of stopping. The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now the generating capacity simply isn't there And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the streetlights in any one street. Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of the world. Even assuming you can distribute enough power to make them function, there aren't enough lamposts available for all the people who are likely to want to use them. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
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