Certes wrote:
On 10/04/2021 16:57, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 10/04/2021 16:36, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC)
Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far
less
efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every
stage + the
vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50%
for a
battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single
advantage
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.



Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than
current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change
(possible at some stage, but not imminent). .

That matters for long distance lorries and buses for whom suitable
batteries
would be a ridiculous size, but for cars its not even an issue right now,
never mind as technology advances. Yes, they're maybe half a ton heavier
than an equivalent ICE car at most, but the vehicle size is the same, if
not a bit smaller.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56678669

[Re yellow lorry image, top] Is the trailer for the batteries?


My assumption was that all the cargo was carried in the trailer, with the
lorry just hauling the batteries.

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 10/04/2021 20:36, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:32:14 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, remarked:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson wrote:
wrote:
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.

The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.



Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.


Even assuming you can distribute enough power to make them function,
there aren't enough lamposts available for all the people who are likely
to want to use them.


So add some extra charging posts, like parking meters of old. There are
also charging points which recess flush into the pavement when not in use,
already available.

The alternative is to provide charging at the other places the car spends
most of its time. I've not had access to my charging socket at home for
around six months, and have survived quite happily charging at work or at
the supermarket. (Nb I'm not in any way claiming that'll work for everyone,
but I bet it would work for a lot of people)


Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 10/04/2021 22:08, Recliner wrote:
Certes wrote:
On 10/04/2021 16:57, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 10/04/2021 16:36, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC)
Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far
less
efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every
stage + the
vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50%
for a
battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single
advantage
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.



Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than
current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change
(possible at some stage, but not imminent). .

That matters for long distance lorries and buses for whom suitable
batteries
would be a ridiculous size, but for cars its not even an issue right now,
never mind as technology advances. Yes, they're maybe half a ton heavier
than an equivalent ICE car at most, but the vehicle size is the same, if
not a bit smaller.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56678669

[Re yellow lorry image, top] Is the trailer for the batteries?


My assumption was that all the cargo was carried in the trailer, with the
lorry just hauling the batteries.

That would be more practical, insofar as having a goods vehicle that
carries around more mechanics than cargo could ever be practical.

In message , at 19:36:52 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:32:14 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, remarked:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson wrote:
wrote:
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.

The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where
the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:37:15 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:44:51 on Thu, 8 Apr 2021,
Basil Jet remarked:

Anglia have liveried trains for the Bittern line, East Suffolk line
etc, but I've only ever seen them on the wrong lines!

Odd you should mention that... this morning one of the Fen Line GN
trains was liveried "Gatwick Express". Which more different to the plain
livery than the straying GA Stansted Express ones (which are at least
the correct side of the river).

Apparently six GatEx 387s have been loaned to GN as temporary 365
replacements.

They are having shuffle, then, because we've not seen 365s on the Fen
line for a couple of years. AIUI they are only used in peak periods to
Peterborough. But with a reduced timetable (now coming to an end)
there'd be less demand for those, so must have sent at least one 387 up
to Kings Lynn and back.

But not for the first time, apparently, here's a similarly liveried (not
the bright Orange version) last August:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnfrombedford/50252872032/

In the medium term, the GA 379s or the cw2c 387s are the more likely
replacements.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:36:52 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:32:14 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, remarked:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson wrote:
wrote:
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.

The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where
the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

The various cable TV/internet companies, now all(?) under the Virgin
umbrella, laid new cable along the pavement of a decent proportion of the
country in the 1990s(?).

This time, for a start, only roads which people actually park along will
need to be covered. That rules out a good proportion of residential roads
which are sufficiently provided with off-street parking.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message , at 08:17:30 on Sun, 11 Apr
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:36:52 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:32:14 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, remarked:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson wrote:
wrote:
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who
don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long
journeys
without much in the way of stopping.

The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where
the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because
right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

The various cable TV/internet companies, now all(?) under the Virgin
umbrella, laid new cable along the pavement of a decent proportion of the
country in the 1990s(?).

Just under the surface (and in many cases very poorly finished), power
cables have to be much deeper - 18" is typical.

This time, for a start, only roads which people actually park along will
need to be covered. That rules out a good proportion of residential roads
which are sufficiently provided with off-street parking.

You'd probably have to do all the ones which currently attract cars
parked on them. Which in a lot of places is pretty much all of them.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:36:52 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:32:14 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, remarked:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson wrote:
wrote:
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.

The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where
the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

To a large extent an ole is an ole, ok it may need to be bit larger for a
power cable of the size required
but when the area I was then living in got cabled for TV by NYNEX the most
memorable part of the disruption they caused was the bloody mess their
marker paints caused before hand, we thought there had been a major
graffiti attack till we twigged what the various pink etc blobs were for.
That was for what was basically an entertainment provider who felt the
investment would be worth while even though many properties to which they
ran the ducts did not take up the system.
Those ducts ISTR were about 25-30mm diameter so a power cable would not be
vastly different if it was direct burial though I accept it may need a more
prepared surround.
One sod who did not take up the system prised the cap off the duct that
terminated inside his fence
and disposed of his motor oil down it which was a bit mean.

If digging up the streets was done fairly effortlessly so that Punters can
watch re runs of “I Love Lucy� and the cultural delights of East Enders
shouting at each other then doing it again for arguably less frivolous
purposes should not be the obstacle you make it out to be.

Meanwhile the utility industry is quietly getting on with replacing old
Iron gas pipes with plastic as leaks as well as being hazardous also
contribute to green house gases even if unburnt.
There is a lot of experience out there in digging the ground.


GH

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:17:30 on Sun, 11 Apr
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:36:52 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:32:14 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, remarked:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson wrote:
wrote:
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who
don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long
journeys
without much in the way of stopping.

The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where
the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because
right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

The various cable TV/internet companies, now all(?) under the Virgin
umbrella, laid new cable along the pavement of a decent proportion of the
country in the 1990s(?).

Just under the surface (and in many cases very poorly finished), power
cables have to be much deeper - 18" is typical.

This time, for a start, only roads which people actually park along will
need to be covered. That rules out a good proportion of residential roads
which are sufficiently provided with off-street parking.

You'd probably have to do all the ones which currently attract cars
parked on them. Which in a lot of places is pretty much all of them.

Rather than laying a whole new cable, can't the existing cable supplying
every house be used?


Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:41:53 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
That matters for long distance lorries and buses for whom suitable batteries
would be a ridiculous size, but for cars its not even an issue right now,
never mind as technology advances. Yes, they're maybe half a ton heavier
than an equivalent ICE car at most, but the vehicle size is the same, if
not a bit smaller.

Which is why H2 is mainly being considered for larger, heavier vehicles:
trains, trucks, long distance buses, large SUVs, perhaps even short range
airliners. It's not needed nor viable for ordinary cars.

Hummer have already built 2 large battery SUVs. And H2 trains makes no
bloody sense whatsoever - just electric the damn lines and if its too
expensive for overhead then they should recind that moronic rule about
no more 3rd rail and lay that instead.