In message m, Roland
Perry writes
This is going to sound extremely dumb, I know. But when did a simple Z1
tube fare increase to Two Pounds? Well, that's what the machine at
Paddington charged me to go to St Pancras.

Another question: From reading the literature closely it seems I can't
use Oyster pre-pay to travel from Central London to Ealing Broadway by
national rail. Although I can by travelcard (Oyster or paper), and both
ends have Oyster-operated gates.

Is this true, and if so, how is the casual user supposed to cope?

(There seems to be a whole page in the guide on how not to get charged
the wrong amount when transiting Wimbledon).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message m, Roland
Perry writes

This is going to sound extremely dumb, I know. But when did a simple
Z1 tube fare increase to Two Pounds? Well, that's what the machine at
Paddington charged me to go to St Pancras.


Another question: From reading the literature closely it seems I can't
use Oyster pre-pay to travel from Central London to Ealing Broadway by
national rail. Although I can by travelcard (Oyster or paper), and both
ends have Oyster-operated gates.

Is this true, and if so, how is the casual user supposed to cope?

(There seems to be a whole page in the guide on how not to get charged
the wrong amount when transiting Wimbledon).

Oyster prepay currently only deals with singles, and you can't use an LU
single to travel from Central London to Ealing Bdy by National Rail.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

In message , Dave Arquati
writes
Oyster prepay currently only deals with singles, and you can't use an
LU single to travel from Central London to Ealing Bdy by National Rail.

Yes, this seems to be the obscure [to a tourist expecting to find an
integrated transport system] reason for this. But with travellers
expected to pass through an Oyster-operated gate to get to some of the
National Rail services on that line, and having to pass through an
Oyster-operated gate to exit Ealing Bdy station, they could be excused
for being *extremely* confused.

Why didn't someone make it a condition of national rails TOCs operating
within the Oyster area that they accept Oyster single tickets?
After all, they accept Oyster Travelcards, so what's the fundamental
difference?
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
y.com...

Why didn't someone make it a condition of national rails TOCs operating
within the Oyster area that they accept Oyster single tickets?

Oyster post-dates most of the TOCs in the London area.

After all, they accept Oyster Travelcards, so what's the fundamental
difference?

Oyster Travelcards are the same price as paper travelcards just using a
different medium. Oyster single tickets are priced differently.

Dave.

In message , Dave Liney
writes
Why didn't someone make it a condition of national rails TOCs operating
within the Oyster area that they accept Oyster single tickets?

Oyster post-dates most of the TOCs in the London area.

But most contracts have clauses allowing for changes to be imposed
later.

(In any event, does Oyster really post-date the change from Thames
Trains to GW Link?)

After all, they accept Oyster Travelcards, so what's the fundamental
difference?

Oyster Travelcards are the same price as paper travelcards just using a
different medium. Oyster single tickets are priced differently.

And that's the *tourist's* problem? Perhaps Ealing Broadway should have
signs on the gates saying that Oyster pre-pay isn't valid on National
Rail, only the Underground.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , Dave Liney
writes

Why didn't someone make it a condition of national rails TOCs operating
within the Oyster area that they accept Oyster single tickets?


Oyster post-dates most of the TOCs in the London area.


The main difference here is really that the Strategic Rail Authority
controls point-to-point fares on National Rail commuter services to
London, and Transport for London has no control at all.

Therefore if TfL want to apply their fares to SRA services, they have to
"pay the difference" - which can be very expensive, since currently a
through journey using National Rail and LU is priced at LU single + NR
single, and under TfL it would just be LU single for whatever zones.

This could all change if either TfL take control of London suburban
services under their plans submitted to the rail review - or possibly if
Network Rail / the Government take on SRA responsibilities and can
therefore set fares. However I doubt the latter would happen as the
Government probably wants to increase fares anyway to help offset the
debt they could inherit from Network Rail.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

Therefore if TfL want to apply their fares to SRA services, they have to
"pay the difference" - which can be very expensive,

However for the Ealing Broadway - Paddington fare TfL pricing is more
expensive for a return than rail pricing.

Oyster 2 x £2.30 = £4.60
NR standard day return = £4.20

And off-peak NR comes down to £2.70 whereas the Oyster price only falls at
weekends and even then to only £3.60.

Paper tickets at TfL prices would be £5 at all times.

There is a good reason why people don't want TfL to price everything within
London.

Dave

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:40:48 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:



And that's the *tourist's* problem? Perhaps Ealing Broadway should have
signs on the gates saying that Oyster pre-pay isn't valid on National
Rail, only the Underground.

You mean it doesn't? My NR station (and several others I've been to)
have posters up saying just that.

In message , k
writes
Perhaps Ealing Broadway should have
signs on the gates saying that Oyster pre-pay isn't valid on National
Rail, only the Underground.

You mean it doesn't?

Not as far as I've seen so far. It's very lacking in information
altogether (like I've yet to find a timetable of all NR services to
London, outside the barriers). I'll have another look tomorrow.

My NR station (and several others I've been to)
have posters up saying just that.

--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:40:48 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , Dave Liney
writes
Why didn't someone make it a condition of national rails TOCs operating
within the Oyster area that they accept Oyster single tickets?

You cannot impose conditions like that. The regulatory regime and
structure of agreements established as part of privatisation do not
allow for unilateral action by TfL.

Oyster post-dates most of the TOCs in the London area.

But most contracts have clauses allowing for changes to be imposed
later.

Sorry but no they do not. Not in respect of ticketing technology or
Travelcard which are covered by National Agreements or ATOC schemes.

I should know as I was involved in the early attempts to get the TOCs to
be even vaguely interested in what LT was doing at the time. Believe me
it was an easy task.

(In any event, does Oyster really post-date the change from Thames
Trains to GW Link?)

After all, they accept Oyster Travelcards, so what's the fundamental
difference?

The revenue allocation is the fundamental difference. There is no
obligation whatsoever for a TOC to accept TfL pricing on parallel routes
except in those cases where it has been established for many, many years
(e.g. LTS / District Line). If a TOC agrees to accept the LUL fare
regime then there will be compensatory payments made to the TOC because
prima facie they will earn less revenue than originally predicted under
their franchise. The balancing aspect is to assess how much additional
usage will arise from an effective cut in fares and the greater ease of
use of the rail system. This is obviously open for extensive debate
between the TOC, SRA and TfL.

Oyster Travelcards are the same price as paper travelcards just using a
different medium. Oyster single tickets are priced differently.

And someone has to fund the cost of 2003 fares levels and weekend caps.

And that's the *tourist's* problem? Perhaps Ealing Broadway should have
signs on the gates saying that Oyster pre-pay isn't valid on National
Rail, only the Underground.

No of course it is not the tourist's problem - there should be adequate
information to make sure are aware of what ticket works where.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!