In ,
Paul Weaver typed:
"Richard J." wrote in message
...
JNugent wrote:

The Chiswick section of M4 was designed and built to be
operated at no speed limit whatsoever - though it had the
national 70 limit imposed soon after opening.

You can't design a road for "no speed limit whatsoever". Britain's

GErman Autobahns seem to throw that out of the window. Sure you can't
design a road for "no speed whatsoever", but theres no need for a
limit on many roads. At least that's what the most populous country
in Euroep seems to think.

Most populous != most densely populated, of course. England does pretty well
in the densely populated stakes.

A

In article ,
Paul Weaver wrote:
You can't design a road for "no speed limit whatsoever". Britain's

GErman Autobahns seem to throw that out of the window. Sure you can't design

Like hell. A lot were designed in the 1930s through the 1950s with the
speeds of cars of the era in mind, but with the very light traffic
loadings. The slip roads are scarily short, and the entry and exit
roads have very tight curves. When they're flowing at speed getting on
to some of the older ones without a fairly high-powered and
decent-handling car can be entertaining, and in the wet they are
especially fun.

ian

Paul Terry wrote:

Richard J. writes:

... it's obvious that the
first bend on the M4 going west was designed to a lower standard.

If you mean the Chiswick flyover, it wasn't even part of the motorway
when it was built in 1959 by Tory transport minister Ernest Marples'
construction company, Marples Ridgway - it was just a flyover on the
A4.

You must be thinking of a different stretch of road - perhaps the
Hammersmith Flyover (which *is* part of the A4).

It didn't become the most easterly part of the M4 until six years
later

I'm sure the Chiswick Flyover was built in the 1960s (along with what was
then the rest of the M4, as far as Maidenhead). It was originally going to
be designated A4(M) [1] - ie, the motorway was only going to be a bypass of
A4 from Chiswick to Maidenhead), but it was still a motorway.

[1] According to early 1960s street maps I have seen, with the motorway
shown only as "under construction" and designated A4(M).


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J Nugent, you clearly won't listen to reason, and seem incapable of even
entertaining the thought that rational reasons may lie behind these
limits, which you may not be able to see, but which should be recognised
as POTENTIALLY existing nonetheless.

Quite frankly, I've bored of previous conversations on these same issues
with you many times before, and I'm bored of this one now.

I have much better things to be doing with my time.

No doubt you'll see it as weaselling out of the argument, however, but
since I have neither the time nor the inclination to attempt to convince
you there may be valid reasons, I frankly, do not give a toss any more.

I will continue to drive that route at the prescribed limit, accepting
that while I might not see all the reasons for the limit being set as it
is, there may be reasons that I do not understand.

It is clear you have no such capability for reasoning in this way, and
as such I'm not prepared to attempt to change someone who's views are,
at the end of the day, completely irrelevant to anything in my life
whatsoever, and irrelevant to almost every one elses too.

I have no idea if you have grandiose ideas of self-importance, but it
certainly seems like it some times.

Good day to you.

--

Velvet

Paul Terry wrote:
In message ,
Richard J. writes

You can't design a road for "no speed limit whatsoever". Britain's
motorways were generally designed for 70 mph,

There was no speed limit whatsoever for the first six years ... it
was not until 1965, after reports of test drivers reaching nearly
170mph on the M1, that a 70mph limit was introduced on motorways.

I know that, but nevertheless the bends, gradients, sightlines etc. of
British motorways were in general designed for safety at 70 mph (current
design speed 75mph = 120kph).

but it's obvious that the
first bend on the M4 going west was designed to a lower standard.

If you mean the Chiswick flyover, it wasn't even part of the
motorway when it was built in 1959 by Tory transport minister
Ernest Marples' construction company, Marples Ridgway - it was just
a flyover on the A4.

Of course I don't mean the original Chiswick flyover, which doesn't have
any bends! . I mean the first bend on the M4 elevated section, near the
EMC (ex-Data General) clock tower. See
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.sr...&z=1&st=4&ar=Y
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:46:58 +0100, "Paul Weaver"
wrote in message
:

GErman Autobahns seem to throw that out of the window. Sure you can't design
a road for "no speed whatsoever", but theres no need for a limit on many
roads. At least that's what the most populous country in Euroep seems to
think.

Have you checked the comparitive fatality figures? Last time I looked
the Autobahn was substantially more dangerous per mile travelled than
our motorways.

Oh, and last time I checked they also had limits on the Autobahn.

Oh, and last time I checked, their other roads do have speed limits.

Guy
--
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On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:55:26 GMT, Velvet
wrote in message :

J Nugent, you clearly won't listen to reason,

.... Is the right answer :-)

Guy
--
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http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:46:58 +0100, "Paul Weaver"
wrote in message
:

GErman Autobahns seem to throw that out of the window. Sure you can't
design
a road for "no speed whatsoever", but theres no need for a limit on many
roads. At least that's what the most populous country in Euroep seems to
think.

Have you checked the comparitive fatality figures? Last time I looked
the Autobahn was substantially more dangerous per mile travelled than
our motorways.

Much lower then the states, but a quick gogole doesnt reveal anything. As we
have one of the lowest fatality rates in the world it wouldn't surprise me
if Germany was higher. What if you compare Germany accident rates to Italy
or France though

Oh, and last time I checked they also had limits on the Autobahn.

Only in certain areas (which makes perfect sense to me, 100mph on the M5 as
it joins in M6 is probably not a great idea, 100mph on the M5 from Exeter up
to Bristol is generally fine)

Most of the system is limitless (for cars)

Oh, and last time I checked, their other roads do have speed limits.

Yes they do. Of course they have a decent autobahn system which means people
only travel in towns and on small roads when they are near their
destination. This of course reduces traffic in and arround towns, and
therfore accident rates.

JNugent wrote:

I'm sure the Chiswick Flyover was built in the 1960s (along with
what was then the rest of the M4, as far as Maidenhead). It was
originally going to be designated A4(M) [1] - ie, the motorway was
only going to be a bypass of A4 from Chiswick to Maidenhead), but
it was still a motorway.

[1] According to early 1960s street maps I have seen, with the
motorway shown only as "under construction" and designated A4(M).

That's not quite right. The sequence of the various developments of the
A4 and M4 in West London is as follows:

- Before the 1950s, the A4 ran through Kensington (High Street),
Hammersmith (King Street) and Chiswick High Road, then down the Great
West Road.

- Between 1955 and 1957, the new A4 ("Cromwell Road Extension") was
rather brutally pushed through West London by widening existing roads or
creating new ones, linking to the Great West Road at the Chiswick
Roundabout.

- In 1959, three flyovers were constructed on this route: Hammersmith,
Hogarth (for A316 traffic, "temporary" but still there!), and Chiswick.

- In the early 1960s, the Maidenhead and Slough bypasses were built. I
thought they were always M4, but perhaps one or both were A4(M) for a
time. Certainly from about 1963 onwards, the M4 was planned as a
London-South Wales route.

- In 1964, the Langley (j.5) to Chiswick section of the M4 was opened,
including the elevated section. The western end of the Chiswick Flyover
was reconstructed to link to the elevated section of the M4 instead of
coming down on to the Great West Road.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Paul Weaver wrote:

As we have one of the lowest fatality rates in the world it wouldn't
surprise me if Germany was higher. What if you compare Germany accident
rates to Italy or France though

There's some 2002 data he

http://www.bast.de/htdocs/fachthemen...glish/we2.html
--
Michael Hoffman