Does anyone know what percentage of revenue from these machines merely
covers overheads? By overheads, I am thinking of:

i) Purchase/leasing and installation (depreciated over the estimated life of
the machine).
ii) Electricity
iii) Consumables (parts, paper for tickets etc).
iv) Repairs/fixing vandalism
v) Paying a team of people to drive around London in 20mpg top-of-the-range
Ford Focus estate cars to empty them
vi) Fraud (attaching devices etc to empty the machines of cash).
vii) Cleaning

The machines have very limited functionality (single trip tickets, one day
bus passes and that's it) so are not well used IMX. If TfL were commercially
aware, they could have added Travelcard functionality and the ability to pay
by credit/debit card, but they aren't so they didn't.

Chris

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:12:38 +0000 (UTC), "Chris Read"
wrote:


Does anyone know what percentage of revenue from these machines merely
covers overheads? By overheads, I am thinking of:

i) Purchase/leasing and installation (depreciated over the estimated life of
the machine).
ii) Electricity
iii) Consumables (parts, paper for tickets etc).
iv) Repairs/fixing vandalism
v) Paying a team of people to drive around London in 20mpg top-of-the-range
Ford Focus estate cars to empty them
vi) Fraud (attaching devices etc to empty the machines of cash).
vii) Cleaning

No idea but I assume that the passenger benefits from quicker boarding
significantly outweigh the costs so therefore in TfL Business Case terms
it is a no brainer.

The machines have very limited functionality (single trip tickets, one day
bus passes and that's it) so are not well used IMX. If TfL were commercially
aware, they could have added Travelcard functionality and the ability to pay
by credit/debit card, but they aren't so they didn't.

Nothing to do with commercial awareness and everything to do with the
fact that the machines are simply *******ised car park machines. They
could never issue Travelcards because they need to be magnetically
encoded. This would add to the capital cost, maintenance cost and
consumable costs. Also a bit pointless when there is a dense rail
network which can vend such tickets plus thousands of Ticket Stops which
can also do so.

The use of credit and debit cards is pointless for machines selling
something costing at a maximum £2.50. There is also the issue of
commission and how anti fraud checks would be carried out. This is not
something that is in the gift of TfL - the banks would almost certainly
insist on a range of on line checks (thus adding to costs) or else they
would bump up the commission charges to reflect the fraud risk. Either
way it costs more to TfL and in the latter cash potentially the
passenger. Who would want to pay £2.70 for a £2.50 One Day Bus Pass for
the privilege of using plastic as payment?

The machines were bought down to a price to do a simple task - i.e. get
the cashless concept in and "working" as quickly as possible. I don't
like the machines - and I say this as someone who is a bit of an expert
on ticket machines - but I do recognise why they were bought.

The commercial awareness bit comes from offering an alternative called
Oyster Pre Pay or Saver tickets both of which offer a hefty discount
over paying cash and which are convenient to use.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

The machines have very limited functionality (single trip tickets, one
day
bus passes and that's it) so are not well used IMX. If TfL were
commercially
aware, they could have added Travelcard functionality and the ability to
pay
by credit/debit card, but they aren't so they didn't.

Nothing to do with commercial awareness and everything to do with the
fact that the machines are simply *******ised car park machines. They
could never issue Travelcards because they need to be magnetically
encoded. This would add to the capital cost, maintenance cost and
consumable costs. Also a bit pointless when there is a dense rail
network which can vend such tickets plus thousands of Ticket Stops which
can also do so.

One thing which they won't do, which drives me around the bend, is sell you
two single tickets in exchange for a £2 coin. If a £2 coin is all you have,
you can only buy a single £1 ticket and receive no change. I expected I
could just press the £1 ticket twice to get it to print 2 and charge me
£2... but no. Grr! It's caught me out a couple of times!

D.

The commercial awareness bit comes from offering an alternative called
Oyster Pre Pay or Saver tickets both of which offer a hefty discount
over paying cash and which are convenient to use.
--
Paul C


Why is it beyond the wit of TFL to extend Oyster to one-day Travelcards?

Marc.

On 30 Aug 2004 00:08:38 GMT, (Mait001) wrote:


The commercial awareness bit comes from offering an alternative called
Oyster Pre Pay or Saver tickets both of which offer a hefty discount
over paying cash and which are convenient to use.


Why is it beyond the wit of TFL to extend Oyster to one-day Travelcards?

I don't think it is. I've commented many times as to why it is a
difficult thing to do and TfL have opted to go the capping route. I'm
sure it will arrive soon but it is difficult to get right so that
passengers are not inconvenienced or wrongly charged. I won't go into
details again because everyone will fall asleep.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote in
:


The machines were bought down to a price to do a simple task - i.e. get
the cashless concept in and "working" as quickly as possible. I don't
like the machines - and I say this as someone who is a bit of an expert
on ticket machines - but I do recognise why they were bought.


One recent journey on the 243:

passenger boards at Holborn "the ticket machine doesn't work"

Told to get off and try again, which she does, without success, and re-
boards "it doesn't work".

Bus travels to next stop where she gets off to try again.

Inserts coin, presses cancel button (the machine was in full view of the
bus), gets back on "it doesn't work".

Bus travels to next stop, now outside the pay-before-you-board area.

Driver issues ticket. The following 243 is now right behind.

It is time the rules on drivers not issuing tickets in the pay-before-you-
board area were relaxed. The machines simply make bus travel more
difficult - mainly for the occasional users who need to be tempted out of
their cars!

"Paul Corfield" wrote:

The use of credit and debit cards is pointless for machines selling
something costing at a maximum £2.50.

c2c and London Underground both have machines at my local stations, which
are happy to take my plastic for a £1.50 return to Upminster, and this is
how I typically pay. Carrying around shedloads of coins destroys suit
trouser pockets. I accept the average fare at these machines is going to be
above £2.50, but probably no more than £5.

There is also the issue of
commission and how anti fraud checks would be carried out. This is not
something that is in the gift of TfL - the banks would almost certainly
insist on a range of on line checks (thus adding to costs) or else they
would bump up the commission charges to reflect the fraud risk.

No different for ticket machines at LU/National Rail stations. At these
values, the transactions would probably be below the retailer 'floor limit',
and therefore there wouldn't be any fraud checks as such. There would need
to be a telecoms link from the machines to a Bank data centre, but I imagine
the machines are already telecoms wired for remote fault reporting etc.

And I don't understand the point about commission charges. Yes, there would
be a card interchange fee payable by TfL every time a card was used - but
surely they are charged every time they go to the Bank with a bag of
miscellaneous coins to pay in? In addition, they pay someone to empty the
machine and someone else to sort and bag the coin. IMX most businesses
drastically underestimate the costs of cash handling, because it isn't a
very exciting matter to think about.

Either
way it costs more to TfL and in the latter cash potentially the
passenger. Who would want to pay £2.70 for a £2.50 One Day Bus Pass for
the privilege of using plastic as payment?

It shouldn't be necessary to charge a premium - but if it was, I suspect
most people would consider 20 pence a negligible sum. Plenty of people pay
£1 to use 'remote' ATMs in convenience stores rather than walk to the
nearest Bank, and plenty of Ebay users are willing to pay a premium to use
Paypal, rather than fanny around with letters, stamps and cheques.

Chris

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:55:32 +0000 (UTC), David Jackman
wrote:

It is time the rules on drivers not issuing tickets in the pay-before-you-
board area were relaxed. The machines simply make bus travel more
difficult - mainly for the occasional users who need to be tempted out of
their cars!

That's because the machines are counter-intuitive. It would only take
a software modification to change them to operate in a logical fashion
as follows:-

1) Insert coin or coins, showing credit on screen.
2) Push ticket button to issue ticket.
3) Repeat (2) if desired until credit is exhausted.

rather than the other way around as at present, which seems to confuse
just about everyone.

Also, remove those stupid black coin-catcher devices. They may stop
people stuffing undesirable items into the coin slot, but they also
mean that if a coin gets slightly stuck it cannot be retrieved/pushed
in without violence against the machine, which won't do anything to
extend their working lives.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

"David FitzGerald" wrote in message


One thing which they won't do, which drives me around the bend, is
sell you two single tickets in exchange for a £2 coin. If a £2 coin
is all you have, you can only buy a single £1 ticket and receive no
change. I expected I could just press the £1 ticket twice to get it
to print 2 and charge me £2... but no. Grr! It's caught me out a
couple of times!


To lose one £2 coin may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like
carelessness.


Lady Bracknell

I am particularly interested in the comments/questions Chris asked about the roadside ticketing machines. Chris did you get a response or know the answer or does anyone else?

Surely as Oyster has become more poplular these machines are hardly used!

[

QUOTE=Chris Read;19579]Does anyone know what percentage of revenue from these machines merely
covers overheads? By overheads, I am thinking of:

i) Purchase/leasing and installation (depreciated over the estimated life of
the machine).
ii) Electricity
iii) Consumables (parts, paper for tickets etc).
iv) Repairs/fixing vandalism
v) Paying a team of people to drive around London in 20mpg top-of-the-range
Ford Focus estate cars to empty them
vi) Fraud (attaching devices etc to empty the machines of cash).
vii) Cleaning

The machines have very limited functionality (single trip tickets, one day
bus passes and that's it) so are not well used IMX. If TfL were commercially
aware, they could have added Travelcard functionality and the ability to pay
by credit/debit card, but they aren't so they didn't.

Chris[/quote]