Brimstone wrote:

Do people in the Dutch town where this has been implemented get mown down?
AIUI, they don't.

If you've been to the Netherlands you'll know their culture is much more
geared towards walkers and cyclists in towns - I'd love it to work here but
there are just too many dangerous drivers out there.

M.

marcb wrote:
Brimstone wrote:

Do people in the Dutch town where this has been implemented get mown
down? AIUI, they don't.

If you've been to the Netherlands you'll know their culture is much
more geared towards walkers and cyclists in towns - I'd love it to
work here but there are just too many dangerous drivers out there.


Seems like this is a good start to reverse the trend.

"Brimstone" wrote in news:crug7k$fak$1
@titan.btinternet.com:

marcb wrote:
Brimstone wrote:

Do people in the Dutch town where this has been implemented get mown
down? AIUI, they don't.

If you've been to the Netherlands you'll know their culture is much
more geared towards walkers and cyclists in towns - I'd love it to
work here but there are just too many dangerous drivers out there.


Seems like this is a good start to reverse the trend.


Maybe - but Exhibition Road is not a typical London road environment. Let's
try it in Hackney (where I live and where it's usual to see cars topping 50
down the side streets).

M.

There is an interview available on line from December's 'Wired' about
Hans Monderman, the traffic engineer promoting the concept.
However, as said on here, the Dutch have a different way of doing
things. Aren't drivers automatically guilty if in an accident with a
pedestrian or bicyclist in the Netherlands, or is that urban myth?

Link to article:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1...ffic.html?pg=1

--
Martin @ Strawberry Hill

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Arquati"
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Sent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 9:30 PM
Subject: Undressing Exhibition Road


The BBC's term for this idea is a "naked road". Apparently RB Kensington
& Chelsea are considering removing the kerb, traffic lights and signs on
Exhibition Road to trial the Dutch scheme where removal of all barriers
and signs is meant to encourage drivers to be more aware of pedestrians.
This is part of a redevelopment plan for Exhibition Road.

It's an interesting idea; Exhibition Road is an interesting road to
choose too. It has a high volume of pedestrian traffic; however, it also
has a large number of street parking spaces at the southern end. I
wonder if these would be removed under this proposal?

I wonder if anybody has considered the impact this scheme would have on
visually impaired - particularly those who use a long cane - pedestrians.
The kerb, like walls, fences and other street furniture are vital guides as
to one's position on the pavement, and location of buildings and safe road
crossing points - removing the kerb would allow visually impaired
pedestrians to wander into the path of vehicles without any knowledge of the
impending danger.

Robert

Any view expressed are my own and may not be representative of those held by
others.
Remove numbers to reply.

"Richard J." wrote in message
k...
It's also a major route between the Paddington/Edgware Road area and
Kensington/Chelsea. While I quite like the idea of the "naked road", I
can't help feeling that this wide, straight through-route is not really
suitable to try out the concept in London.

There's a section of Caledonian Road (the end nearest the Nags Head junction
with Holloway Road) which is, probably unintentionally, devoid of most
markings. At most times it flows nicely, but at peak times it's a nightmare
as nobody really knows if it's "supposed" to be one or two lanes. In this
case there are no pedestrians to worry about (separate pavements on both
sides, separated by a line of parked cars), few junctions, and the road is
one-way only. IMHO, the "undressed" concept is great - and I'm all for
removal of paint from the roads - but I think London drivers have and will
have a lot to learn and get used to for it to work safely, smoothly, calmly
and efficiently.

It's an interesting idea; Exhibition Road is an interesting road to
choose too. It has a high volume of pedestrian traffic; however, it
also
has a large number of street parking spaces at the southern end. I
wonder if these would be removed under this proposal?


A few points I have noticed

1. At the bottom of the steps going from the Tanaka building (Imperial
College) the footpath is about an inch wider than the footpath along
the rest of the street. Assuming that this inch of footpath is
privately owned by Imperial College, will it still stay?

2. Why remove footpaths when parts of them were freshly laid last
summer (and are in much better condition than other footpaths in K&C
and Westminster)

3. Is it just the K&C part of Exhibition road which is taking part in
the trial or is the Westminster part doing so aswell?

4. If signs and road markings are to be removed does this include the
parking restriction signs and the double red lines? Does this mean
people can park anywhere?

Chris

wrote:
It's an interesting idea; Exhibition Road is an interesting road to
choose too. It has a high volume of pedestrian traffic; however, it also
has a large number of street parking spaces at the southern end. I
wonder if these would be removed under this proposal?

A few points I have noticed

1. At the bottom of the steps going from the Tanaka building (Imperial
College) the footpath is about an inch wider than the footpath along
the rest of the street. Assuming that this inch of footpath is
privately owned by Imperial College, will it still stay?

I didn't even notice the extra inch. I presume if the pavements were
reduced to road level, some sort of smooth transition would be required
here to maintain level access. Perhaps the road would just be raised to
pavement level instead.

2. Why remove footpaths when parts of them were freshly laid last
summer (and are in much better condition than other footpaths in K&C
and Westminster)

I don't think this plan is imminent - they haven't even launched the
consultation yet. The Sloane Square redesign is much further advanced.

3. Is it just the K&C part of Exhibition road which is taking part in
the trial or is the Westminster part doing so aswell?

The plan is part of the Mayor's 100 Public Spaces programme so
Westminster are likely to take part too, if only to extend up to Prince
Consort Road, after which pedestrian traffic is much lower.

4. If signs and road markings are to be removed does this include the
parking restriction signs and the double red lines? Does this mean
people can park anywhere?

I'm sure some innovative solution would be found...

It is important to note that the "undressing" is only a possibility
rather than a concrete proposal for this scheme.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Mait001" wrote in message
...
AIUI the whole point is to force both pedestrians and drivers to switch
their brains on. That can only be good can't it?



Sadly, increasing numbers of both appear to have no brains to switch on,
and
the 2 forms of traffic (foot and wheeled) need to be kept apart by as
sensible
means as possible. This has been, for about a Century (or longer in some
places) by means of kerb and bollards. Why reinvent the wheel now?

Pedestrians and drivers need to know their demarcation: pedestrians on the
pavement, vehicles on the road. Simple. Straightforward. Each knows where
he
can and can't (or shouldn't) go. Why make life impossibly difficult for
all
those that are too stupid to make these decisions for themselves?

In an age of dumbing-down, this invention of "choice" seems a retrograde
step,
and will inevitably lead to those incapable of making the right choice to
make
the wrong one.


What is the point in arguing against a scheme that is working perfectly well
elsewhere? Are you suggesting that the people of the UK are in some way less
intelligent or able to to adapt than the people of Holland? Or are you in
favour of further dumbing down?

Look upon this as a first step in despatching Nanny back to the Nursery.

What is the point in arguing against a scheme that is working
perfectly well
elsewhere? Are you suggesting that the people of the UK are in some
way less
intelligent or able to to adapt than the people of Holland? Or are
you in
favour of further dumbing down?

Look upon this as a first step in despatching Nanny back to the
Nursery.

This works fine in rural parts of Britan where the councils have
neither the need nor the money to put extra signs and footpaths in.
The differennce between rural Britain and London is that in London
there is a lot more traffic, drivers are often stressed and the driving
style is completely different. As someone with experience of living in
both London and a small rural village I beleive I can make this
comment.

Also, there are some very old trees growing out of the footpaths on
Exhibition Road - are they going to be left there when the footpath
becomes the road?