"Ian Jelf" wrote in message
...
In message , Nick
writes
I know "Londoners" find this hard to believe, but many of us don't wanty
to be part of your high-density overpopulated sprawling urban gloom.

But people there are probably happy with their co-ordinated public
transport and - when the time comes - Freedom Passes?

Whenever I have this debate about Bexley part of Greater London or not, the
biggest noise always seems to be made about the Freedom pass!

Arguably, I think the freedom pass is overkill anyway; I would support free
use of local buses to moderately distant locations, trains to central
London, and maybe tube travel in Z1 off-peak. In Bexley, I would guess that
95% of Freedom pass owners use the train and tube extremely rarely, and
probably less than 50% use the buses regularly. I don't believe pensioners
are at all bothered that they can travel to Uxbridge for free. How many
Freedom pass users regularly travel to Dartford and Bluewater and contribute
to "out-of-region" retail spend I wonder :-)

Co-ordinated local public transport? In Bexley, that just means running
buses with the NR network, and you don't need a massive Greater London body
to draw up a few bus timetables to match those of the NR network.

Nick

In message , Nick
writes
"Ian Jelf" wrote in message
...
In message , Nick
writes
I know "Londoners" find this hard to believe, but many of us don't wanty
to be part of your high-density overpopulated sprawling urban gloom.

But people there are probably happy with their co-ordinated public
transport and - when the time comes - Freedom Passes?

Whenever I have this debate about Bexley part of Greater London or not, the
biggest noise always seems to be made about the Freedom pass!
The same happens here in Birmingham when the Centro Senior Citizen pass
is used as justification for Sutton Coldfield being now part of
Birmingham. :-)

Arguably, I think the freedom pass is overkill anyway;
Well I don't but each to their own.

Co-ordinated local public transport? In Bexley, that just means running
buses with the NR network, and you don't need a massive Greater London body
to draw up a few bus timetables to match those of the NR network.
Try living outside the Greater London area [1] and compare transport
provision and co-ordination there and you'll see how LB Bexley *does*
have co-ordination.


[1] or whatever term you prefer for the area administered by the GLA
and Mayor and served by TfL.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Nick wrote:

Arguably, I think the freedom pass is overkill anyway; I would support free
use of local buses to moderately distant locations, trains to central
London, and maybe tube travel in Z1 off-peak.

I take it that you don't qualify for a Freedom Pass?

--
John Ray (over 60).

Nick wrote:
"Ian Jelf" wrote...
writes
I know "Londoners" find this hard to believe, but many of us don't wanty
to be part of your high-density overpopulated sprawling urban gloom.

But people there are probably happy with their co-ordinated public
transport and - when the time comes - Freedom Passes?

Whenever I have this debate about Bexley part of Greater London or not, the
biggest noise always seems to be made about the Freedom pass!

Probably because the holders have got the most to lose, and will
fiercely resist any attempt to take it away.

Arguably, I think the freedom pass is overkill anyway; I would support free
use of local buses to moderately distant locations, trains to central
London, and maybe tube travel in Z1 off-peak. In Bexley, I would guess that
95% of Freedom pass owners use the train and tube extremely rarely, and
probably less than 50% use the buses regularly.

Do you know any Freedom pass owners? Your guess seems wildly low!

I don't believe pensioners
are at all bothered that they can travel to Uxbridge for free.

Maybe not Uxbridge, but certainly Kingston and Heathrow, despite the
truncation of the 726 at Bromley.

How many
Freedom pass users regularly travel to Dartford and Bluewater and contribute
to "out-of-region" retail spend I wonder :-)

Unlike normal bus passes, Freedom passes are not valid as far as
Bluewater. However, they are valid to Dartford and Swanley on the train
as well as on the bus. Hundreds use Freedom passes to get to Dartford
and Swanley markets, but that's hardly "out of region".

Co-ordinated local public transport? In Bexley, that just means running
buses with the NR network, and you don't need a massive Greater London body
to draw up a few bus timetables to match those of the NR network.

Services in Bexley are so erratic that timetabled connections would be
meaningless. Fortunately most routes are reasonably frequent (with the
exception of the B14 which only runs every 30 minutes on a good day) and
buses serve every rail station in Bexley LB.

"Aidan Stanger" wrote in message
...
Nick wrote:
"Ian Jelf" wrote...
writes
I know "Londoners" find this hard to believe, but many of us don't
wanty
to be part of your high-density overpopulated sprawling urban gloom.

But people there are probably happy with their co-ordinated public
transport and - when the time comes - Freedom Passes?

Whenever I have this debate about Bexley part of Greater London or not,
the
biggest noise always seems to be made about the Freedom pass!

Probably because the holders have got the most to lose, and will
fiercely resist any attempt to take it away.

Arguably, I think the freedom pass is overkill anyway; I would support
free
use of local buses to moderately distant locations, trains to central
London, and maybe tube travel in Z1 off-peak. In Bexley, I would guess
that
95% of Freedom pass owners use the train and tube extremely rarely, and
probably less than 50% use the buses regularly.

Do you know any Freedom pass owners? Your guess seems wildly low!

Yes, I know lots of Freedom pass owners, many of whom drive and never use
it; of the rest, most just use the local buses (local as in
Bexley/Bromley/Dartford/Woolwich).

What are the actual figures? My guess is low, but I suspect it might be of
the right order.

I don't believe pensioners
are at all bothered that they can travel to Uxbridge for free.

Maybe not Uxbridge, but certainly Kingston and Heathrow, despite the
truncation of the 726 at Bromley.

I don't think pensioners in Bexley have much interest or inclination to
travel to either of those places ;-)

How many
Freedom pass users regularly travel to Dartford and Bluewater and
contribute
to "out-of-region" retail spend I wonder :-)

Unlike normal bus passes, Freedom passes are not valid as far as
Bluewater. However, they are valid to Dartford and Swanley on the train
as well as on the bus. Hundreds use Freedom passes to get to Dartford
and Swanley markets, but that's hardly "out of region".

Ah, that's interesting and I didn't know that - not valid beyond Dartford
for Bluewater by bus? I am quite surprised at that. I am sure pensioners
around here would love to stay on the 96 to Bluewater and not be chucked off
at Dartford. So pensioners in Bexley can travel to Uxbridge for free, but
have to pay to go a few miles to Bluewater, hmm!

I agree with you that's it hardly out of region, but I was (pehaps too)
subltely hinting at how the daft the London/South East government regional
division is. Retail spend in Dartford and Swanley harms the spend figures
for "London" and boosts those for the "SouthEast" region. For similar
reasons it appears, Bexley (the council) seem absolutely terrfied of
promoting the proximity of Bluewater as a major benefit of living in Bexley,
partly because it means diverting spend outside the borough (OK, and they
want to promote their own shopping centres too, eg Bexleyheath, I agree with
that as well). However, living a few minutes from the biggest shopping
centre in Europe is a big benefit IMO.

...

In message , Nick
writes
Yes, I know lots of Freedom pass owners, many of whom drive and never use
it; of the rest, most just use the local buses (local as in
Bexley/Bromley/Dartford/Woolwich).

I would be very interested to see the newspaper reaction if it was
announced tomorrow that Freedom passes were to be replaced by Bexley +
Bluewater only passes for holders living in Bexley.......

:-))

Kingston and Heathrow
I don't think pensioners in Bexley have much interest or inclination to
travel to either of those places ;-)
Not even Heathrow?


Ah, that's interesting and I didn't know that - not valid beyond Dartford
for Bluewater by bus? I am quite surprised at that. I am sure pensioners
around here would love to stay on the 96 to Bluewater and not be chucked off
at Dartford.
I know you're only using a figure of speech but they're not in any sense
"chucked off"; they merely have to pay a fare from the boundary!

So pensioners in Bexley can travel to Uxbridge for free, but
have to pay to go a few miles to Bluewater, hmm!
Boundaries have to be *somewhere* and they will always result in winners
and losers.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

"Ian Jelf" wrote in message
...
In message , Nick
writes
Yes, I know lots of Freedom pass owners, many of whom drive and never use
it; of the rest, most just use the local buses (local as in
Bexley/Bromley/Dartford/Woolwich).

I would be very interested to see the newspaper reaction if it was
announced tomorrow that Freedom passes were to be replaced by Bexley +
Bluewater only passes for holders living in Bexley.......

:-))

Kingston and Heathrow
I don't think pensioners in Bexley have much interest or inclination to
travel to either of those places ;-)
Not even Heathrow?


Ah, that's interesting and I didn't know that - not valid beyond Dartford
for Bluewater by bus? I am quite surprised at that. I am sure pensioners
around here would love to stay on the 96 to Bluewater and not be chucked
off
at Dartford.
I know you're only using a figure of speech but they're not in any sense
"chucked off"; they merely have to pay a fare from the boundary!

This is one of those strange things as mentioned a London freedom pass
holder may only travel as far as Dartford, yet
a KCC half fare permit holder may travel at half fare all the way to
Woolwich.

In message , Colin
writes

This is one of those strange things as mentioned a London freedom pass
holder may only travel as far as Dartford, yet a KCC half fare permit
holder may travel at half fare all the way to Woolwich.

That's not uncommon with surrounding shire counties of several
Metropolitan areas.

For example, Centro's (very generous) scheme in the West Midlands cuts
off very firmly at the West Midlands boundary. However, passes for
Staffordshire, Worcestershire and Warwickshire allow (much less
generous) travel into the West Midlands county, so that people from -
say_ Warwick can go all the way to Coventry or Cannock all the way in
to Walsall.

They might even allow travel all the way into Birmingham, I'm not
certain.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Nick wrote:

"Aidan Stanger" wrote...
Nick wrote:
"Ian Jelf" wrote...
writes
I know "Londoners" find this hard to believe, but many of us don't
wanty
to be part of your high-density overpopulated sprawling urban gloom.

But people there are probably happy with their co-ordinated public
transport and - when the time comes - Freedom Passes?

Whenever I have this debate about Bexley part of Greater London or not,
the biggest noise always seems to be made about the Freedom pass!

Probably because the holders have got the most to lose, and will
fiercely resist any attempt to take it away.

Arguably, I think the freedom pass is overkill anyway; I would support
free use of local buses to moderately distant locations, trains to
central London, and maybe tube travel in Z1 off-peak. In Bexley, I
would guess that 95% of Freedom pass owners use the train and tube
extremely rarely, and probably less than 50% use the buses regularly.

Do you know any Freedom pass owners? Your guess seems wildly low!

Yes, I know lots of Freedom pass owners, many of whom drive and never use
it;

Then why do they bother claiming it?

of the rest, most just use the local buses (local as in
Bexley/Bromley/Dartford/Woolwich).

The mobility of pensioners varies enormously - some journey all around
London and beyond, while others only use one bus route, and rarely
travel any further than the supermarket nearest the bus stop two stops
away from where they live!

Of the former group, not all drive. Of those who do, not many will be
able to in the near future.

What are the actual figures? My guess is low, but I suspect it might be of
the right order.

I don't have the figures, and AFAIK nobody else does.

I don't believe pensioners
are at all bothered that they can travel to Uxbridge for free.

Maybe not Uxbridge, but certainly Kingston and Heathrow, despite the
truncation of the 726 at Bromley.

I don't think pensioners in Bexley have much interest or inclination to
travel to either of those places ;-)

Then you're wrong - some certainly do.

How many Freedom pass users regularly travel to Dartford and Bluewater
and contribute to "out-of-region" retail spend I wonder :-)

Unlike normal bus passes, Freedom passes are not valid as far as
Bluewater. However, they are valid to Dartford and Swanley on the train
as well as on the bus. Hundreds use Freedom passes to get to Dartford
and Swanley markets, but that's hardly "out of region".

Ah, that's interesting and I didn't know that - not valid beyond Dartford
for Bluewater by bus? I am quite surprised at that. I am sure pensioners
around here would love to stay on the 96 to Bluewater and not be chucked off
at Dartford. So pensioners in Bexley can travel to Uxbridge for free, but
have to pay to go a few miles to Bluewater, hmm!

In practice they're not chucked off, so many do travel to Bluewater for
free even though they're not supposed to! They have to pay to get back,
of course.

I agree with you that's it hardly out of region, but I was (pehaps too)
subltely hinting at how the daft the London/South East government regional
division is. Retail spend in Dartford and Swanley harms the spend figures
for "London" and boosts those for the "SouthEast" region.

Maybe that's true of the figures, but does that translate to any
disadvantage in reality?

For similar reasons it appears, Bexley (the council) seem absolutely
terrfied of promoting the proximity of Bluewater as a major benefit of
living in Bexley, partly because it means diverting spend outside the
borough (OK, and they want to promote their own shopping centres too, eg
Bexleyheath, I agree with that as well). However, living a few minutes
from the biggest shopping centre in Europe is a big benefit IMO.

I thought Meadowhall claimed that title, and Bluewater only claimed to
be the biggest in Britain :-)

Some people find the size of Bluewater offputting, and many would prefer
to shop in the more familliar Central London. And with freedom passes,
they can!

Aidan Stanger wrote:


In practice they're not chucked off, so many do travel to Bluewater for
free even though they're not supposed to! They have to pay to get back,
of course.


Is the reduction of validity of Freedom Passes, i.e. beyond the Greater
London boundary, a new thing? Since you (I think it was you) raised it
earlier in the thread, I have looked at the current bus maps and there
is indeed a rather vague note to that effect, which I had not noticed
before. I ask because, within the last two months, I have travelled from
Dartford to Bluewater and back on route 96, using a Freedom Pass,
presuming the journey to be "legal", and was not asked to pay a fare;
indeed, nothing was said by the drivers. I have also travelled to
Potters Bar on a 313 and back on an 84, again without challenge.

The bus map suggests that pass holders check with the driver or phone LT
Information, which in turn suggests that the rules are not
straightforward. I wonder, for example, if someone travelling on a 107
from Barnet to Stanmore (both within the GLC boundary) would be liable
for an excess fare because this route goes via Borehamwood and Elstree,
both of which are outside the boundary?

--
John Ray