Solar Penguin wrote:
--- Rich Mallard said...


If this ever comes about and NR seasons are scrapped,
it will even be cheaper for me to get a rail-only season from outside
the TfL zones (Dartford, 20 quid per month more) than to buy a
Travelcard (50 quid a month more).

I don't understand why this is happening at all really. We already
have a zonal ticket - it's called a Travelcard. The argument about
"simplification" is just a ruse to introduce higher fares across the
board which are then channeled into TfL's central funding pool. I
would be happy to pay more for rail-only journies to pay for
rail-specific enhancements (ie getting my dilapitated station
painted), but of course that is not an option.


I agree 100%. I've said it before, but zonal tickets are just a con to
make us pay extra for journeys that we could make (but won't) instead of
paying for the journeys which we do actually make.

Trouble is, the stupid zones have been around so long that too many
people have got into the habit of thinking that they're a good thing,
even when they're clearly not -- and won't hear a word said against
them. Maybe it would have been better if TfL abandoned their zones and
came into line with the rest of the country with a point-to-point
system.

I fail to see how an uncomplicated system which people can actually
understand is a problem. Zones are essentially distance-based, but take
into account a need to be flexible with travel plans, the fact that
central London is much busier than outer London, and keep people happy
when they can easily understand what fare they will pay.

How would Travelcards - the most useful and flexible ticket - work under
a point-to-point system?

The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment, and
hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
...

The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment, and
hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

...

Apart from a few anomalies, it isn't that complicated at all (though this
appears to be the line taken by TfL - mustn't confuse the dumb travelling
public - let's just have simple and much higher fares overall).

Take Bexley NR station, Zone 6. Turn up off-peak and ask for day return
ticket to London. Clerk asks if you want tube and bus - if so you get a
travelcard, if not you get a nice cheap CDR. What's so complicated about
that?

What is a scandal though is all the people sold Travelcards by lazy ticket
clerks who should really be issuing CDRs, and people who don't know NR
season tickets exist to London terminals from around here (and are buying
much more expensive period Travelcards!) Sad, but true.

Nick

"Nick" wrote in message
...
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
...

The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment, and
hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

...

Apart from a few anomalies, it isn't that complicated at all

It's complicated in the sense that all journeys are individually
priced. It is thus impossible for someone to sell you a ticket
from A to B without them having a complete database (thick
book or computer disk) of fares from every A to every B. To
be able to sell tickes for a zonal system all you need is a map
on the wall.

Effectively, this means that to buy a ticket for my journey I
have to queue up at the station. Were a complete zonal system
in operation accross all modes, I could just go and buy a ticket
from my local newsagents (as I could for LT journeys).

tim

tim wrote:
"Nick" wrote in message
...

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

...

The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment, and
hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

...

Apart from a few anomalies, it isn't that complicated at all


It's complicated in the sense that all journeys are individually
priced. It is thus impossible for someone to sell you a ticket

Every can of beans / newspaper / magazine / item of clothing / etc you
buy is individually priced and you cope with that don't you.

from A to B without them having a complete database (thick
book or computer disk) of fares from every A to every B. To
be able to sell tickes for a zonal system all you need is a map
on the wall.

Effectively, this means that to buy a ticket for my journey I
have to queue up at the station. Were a complete zonal system
in operation accross all modes, I could just go and buy a ticket
from my local newsagents (as I could for LT journeys).

tim

1. Assumption that there will be a queue at the station and not at the
newsagents. Whenever I buy a ticket (an extension as I have a Z1-3
annual) I do so off-peak and almost invariably there is no queue.
Buying a newspaper at the newsagents can be a horrible though, waiting
behind all those bloody people buying zonal tickets!

2. AFAIK, the reason, AFAIK, that fares structure takes 7 volumes or
whatever and it takes an age to buy a ticket is that BR had made
thousands of special terminal in the 1970s and these are what are still
being used by counter staff today. The memory capacity of these is very
limited indeed.

A modern box (probably running Linux and with a cheap 80-120GB hard
drive) could easily cope with all of the data and spit out the cheapest
or quickest option in a fraction of a second. With a decent UI[*] that
is what the passenger accessible machines would have as well.

* that includes learning that none of Waterloo, Charing Cross and
Victoria start with an L.

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Stephen Osborn wrote:

Every can of beans / newspaper / magazine / item of clothing / etc
you buy is individually priced

Not quite. The "pick and mix" has a fixed price for your choice of
the items included in the offer. And a zone fare system works a bit
like that.

"Stephen Osborn" wrote in message
...
tim wrote:
"Nick" wrote in message
...

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

...

The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment, and
hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

...

Apart from a few anomalies, it isn't that complicated at all


It's complicated in the sense that all journeys are individually
priced. It is thus impossible for someone to sell you a ticket

Every can of beans / newspaper / magazine / item of clothing / etc you buy
is individually priced and you cope with that don't you.

It's not a question of coping, it's a question of costs of
distribution/sale. When buying a tangible item there is inherently
a cost of distribution in getting the goods on the shelf. adding to this
cost by having to this stick a little price sticker does not make much
difference. A travel ticket has no cost of distribution other than
that of calculating the price, making the price calcualtion more
difficult makes a bigger difference.

from A to B without them having a complete database (thick
book or computer disk) of fares from every A to every B. To
be able to sell tickes for a zonal system all you need is a map
on the wall.

Effectively, this means that to buy a ticket for my journey I
have to queue up at the station. Were a complete zonal system
in operation accross all modes, I could just go and buy a ticket
from my local newsagents (as I could for LT journeys).

tim

1. Assumption that there will be a queue at the station and not at the
newsagents.

so go to another news agents.

Whenever I buy a ticket (an extension as I have a Z1-3 annual) I do so
off-peak and almost invariably there is no queue.

aren't you lucky.

tim

tim wrote:
"Stephen Osborn" wrote in message
...

tim wrote:



It's complicated in the sense that all journeys are individually
priced. It is thus impossible for someone to sell you a ticket

Every can of beans / newspaper / magazine / item of clothing / etc you buy
is individually priced and you cope with that don't you.

It's not a question of coping, it's a question of costs of
distribution/sale. When buying a tangible item there is inherently
a cost of distribution in getting the goods on the shelf. adding to this
cost by having to this stick a little price sticker does not make much
difference. A travel ticket has no cost of distribution other than
that of calculating the price, making the price calcualtion more
difficult makes a bigger difference.

What are you talking about? You said that it is complicated, implying
that is a problem, I merely pointed out it is no more complicated than
any shopping trip.

As for your costs of distribution 'argument', this is total hogwash.
The price of many goods bears no relationship to their cost of
distribution, compare a designer dress with a cheap one. Or are you
saying that all sale prices should be related to the cost of
distribution - in which case all travel tickets would cost the same.

1. Assumption that there will be a queue at the station and not at the
newsagents.

so go to another news agents.

No, I was merely pointing out an unfounded assumption, namely that there
will always be a queue at a station and never at a newsagents.

Whenever I buy a ticket (an extension as I have a Z1-3 annual) I do so
off-peak and almost invariably there is no queue.

aren't you lucky.

No, smart. If you go to any shop (which is what a station booking
office is) when it is quiet then there is less chance of a queue.

"Stephen Osborn" wrote in message
...
tim wrote:
"Stephen Osborn" wrote in message
...

tim wrote:



It's complicated in the sense that all journeys are individually
priced. It is thus impossible for someone to sell you a ticket

Every can of beans / newspaper / magazine / item of clothing / etc you
buy is individually priced and you cope with that don't you.

It's not a question of coping, it's a question of costs of
distribution/sale. When buying a tangible item there is inherently
a cost of distribution in getting the goods on the shelf. adding to this
cost by having to this stick a little price sticker does not make much
difference. A travel ticket has no cost of distribution other than
that of calculating the price, making the price calcualtion more
difficult makes a bigger difference.

What are you talking about? You said that it is complicated, implying
that is a problem, I merely pointed out it is no more complicated than any
shopping trip.

It is complicated for the provider, therefore it adds to the cost of
sale.

As for your costs of distribution 'argument', this is total hogwash. The
price of many goods bears no relationship to their cost of distribution,

Of course there isn't a relationship, but there is an element of
cost that is 'distribution. Make the distribution more complicated
and this cost goes up.

compare a designer dress with a cheap one. Or are you saying that all
sale prices should be related to the cost of distribution - in which case
all travel tickets would cost the same.

1. Assumption that there will be a queue at the station and not at the
newsagents.

so go to another news agents.

No, I was merely pointing out an unfounded assumption, namely that there
will always be a queue at a station and never at a newsagents.

I never made this assertion. I simply suggest that it is often easier
to buy your travel tickets at the newsagents rather than the station.
This is definately the case with an unmanned station where the machine
might be vandalised, not have the correct change etc and you have the
aggro of explaining all this to the guard to avoid a penalty fare, noting
that some of the reason you can think of do not avoid the penalty.

If you don't like the idea of buying them at the newsagents then
that's fine, but why does this give you the right to deny this option
to somebody else?

Whenever I buy a ticket (an extension as I have a Z1-3 annual) I do so
off-peak and almost invariably there is no queue.

aren't you lucky.

No, smart. If you go to any shop (which is what a station booking office
is) when it is quiet then there is less chance of a queue.

Um, so I'll change my meeting time to one when I know that the
booking office is not going to have a queue, that'll go down well
won't it?

tim

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:28:20 +0000 (UTC), Stephen Osborn
wrote:

Every can of beans / newspaper / magazine / item of clothing / etc you
buy is individually priced and you cope with that don't you.

Yes, but there is enough room in your average shop for all these items
to be out on display. With a probable average of, say, 5 or 6 ticket
types per relation (which would be N(N-1) where N is the number of
stations on the national system, or on LUL, as applicable), that ain't
practical. Even in the days of Edmondson (sp?) tickets, there was
duplication - I have somewhere a ticket from Liverpool Central to "any
station bounded by Rainford, Aughton Park or Formby" (or something
like that).

2. AFAIK, the reason, AFAIK, that fares structure takes 7 volumes or
whatever and it takes an age to buy a ticket is that BR had made
thousands of special terminal in the 1970s and these are what are still
being used by counter staff today. The memory capacity of these is very
limited indeed.

The complexity of the fares structure has nothing to do with the
machines which issue it, which as it happens are largely in the
process of being replaced with machines which do "know" the entire
fares structure.

A modern box (probably running Linux and with a cheap 80-120GB hard
drive) could easily cope with all of the data and spit out the cheapest
or quickest option in a fraction of a second. With a decent UI[*] that
is what the passenger accessible machines would have as well.

The cheapest/quickest *single* ticket, yes (where I mean one ticket,
not just a one-way). The number of possible fares *combinations* is
staggering, and because the fares system (if you'd call it that) is so
badly broken, it is necessary to investigate these for best value.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:28:20 +0000 (UTC), Stephen Osborn
wrote:

Every can of beans / newspaper / magazine / item of clothing / etc you
buy is individually priced and you cope with that don't you.

Yes, but there is enough room in your average shop for all these items
to be out on display. With a probable average of, say, 5 or 6 ticket
types per relation (which would be N(N-1) where N is the number of
stations on the national system, or on LUL, as applicable), that ain't
practical.

True, but I am not sure that this is fully relevant. I doubt that you
compare the price of every can of baked beans every time you go shopping
to see which is the best value, but you might do so now and then.
However if you were to buy some caviar then you probably would check out
the best value.

So, if you want to check out the prices (caviar / London to Edinburgh)
then you can do so. If you are happy with what you usually get (beans /
day return your-local-station to London) then you can do that.

The key thing is that the system needs to reliably gives the appropriate
ticket.

One basic point to bear in mind is that, in general, systems can be fair
or they can be simple.
A zonal system can be simpler but full of anomalies (e.g. four stops
crossing a zonal boundary costing more than 10 stops with a single zone)
and so less fair.
A point to point system can be fairer (charging for the distance
traveled) but will be more complex.

2. AFAIK, the reason, AFAIK, that fares structure takes 7 volumes or
whatever and it takes an age to buy a ticket is that BR had made
thousands of special terminal in the 1970s and these are what are still
being used by counter staff today. The memory capacity of these is very
limited indeed.

The complexity of the fares structure has nothing to do with the
machines which issue it, which as it happens are largely in the
process of being replaced with machines which do "know" the entire
fares structure.

I was not clear. The 7 volumes are only relevant in that station staff
have to look things up in a number of large paper books and often get
them wrong, because there are so many options /discounts / etc. It does
not really matter if there are 7 volumes or 17 volumes if the system
reliably gives the appropriate ticket.

A modern box (probably running Linux and with a cheap 80-120GB hard
drive) could easily cope with all of the data and spit out the cheapest
or quickest option in a fraction of a second. With a decent UI[*] that
is what the passenger accessible machines would have as well.

The cheapest/quickest *single* ticket, yes (where I mean one ticket,
not just a one-way). The number of possible fares *combinations* is
staggering, and because the fares system (if you'd call it that) is so
badly broken, it is necessary to investigate these for best value.

But single tickets (i.e. A to B and back either one day or seasonal)
versus travelcards is what this discussion is about.

If you regularly travel A to B to C to D to A or your journeys are
irregular (home to work to one of many clients to different one of
many clients to work to pub to home) then a travelcard is almost
guaranteed to be better for you.

If all you do is local train station to London to local train station
then a travelcard is almost guaranteed to be worse for you.

BTW, I would totally agree that the number of possible tickets is
unnecessarily wide. I went from London to Edinburgh last year and there
were well over 20 possible fares.

Neil